Talk:Yemeni Arabic

It is considered to be the closest to Standard Classical Arabic (the Arabic of the Qur'an).

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Removed from article as looks like Yemeni pride - and there is no mention of this fact in any of our articles on arabic. Secretlondon 17:51, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure how much stock to put on it, but my copy of Lonely Planet's guide to the Middle East (2003 edition thereof) makes the following statement (p 753, under "Courses" in the Yemen section), "San'a is an ideal place to learn Arabic; costs are low and the language spoken by Yemenis is close to classical Arabic". Not necessarily "the closest" as the original author of this article had it, but I'll add something to this effect (and try to keep it a bit more POV).

BigHaz 11:51, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This is a fascinating article, but it needs references to sources of information.

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The Hadhrami section seems really out of place, being verbatim out of a textbook. It has useful information in it but it needs to be edited to fit the format better. It also uses non-standard grammatical terminology e.g. it refers to verbs being "umlauted" to produce a new measure.

Well, as for the table of letters, the IPA section includes Chinese Characters. An encoding problem probably Ulashima 13:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

-- I've edited out some silly stuff from the hadhrami section, it reads a little easier now. 71.229.63.50 19:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Other dialects

• The Wailah tribes of the North and Harath. Thier dialect stands out as diff closely related to the Ismaili tirbes of Southern Najran in modern Saudi Arabia.
• The Bedouins from East of Khawlan extending through the Saudi borders back to Northern Hadharamout in Yemen. These people still speak a different dialect than Sana'ani or Hadrami.
• Western Semitic similarities in the Lower Rayma', Udayin/Al-Misrakh _AlMasharika_ (the Eatserners) all the way to the villages north of Mawza'a Southwest region in Yemen. The Arabic in that region doesnt pronounce "AL" replacing it with ('a) and a weak (R). This pronounciation is disappears in the villages that were Sabean, Himyarite important towns(?)
• Also the Jews of Yemen clearly pronounced the (Al) and (R) letters, so this can be attributed to Hebrew or any Western variant the Jews might have spoken? (besides Yemeni Jews majority were local converts).
• The Zaraika and Zaranik are tribes known for their distinguished dialect from Both Tihami, Zabidi or Taizi. They are known for being isolated and opposed to any central governemnt influence in their regions. (later used as guards of former south and North Yemen)
• The Soqatra Arabic is not what you call Hadrami, Adeni or any dialect mentioned in the article.
• The Akhdam class in Yemen (are Yemenis although they are of Aksumite origin) and they speak their own dialects.
• The "Khuban" dialect all the way to "ALAwd" use "La" before verbs for Present Continuous.
• The Rada'a region up and most Eastern Bedouins use "Dhe" instead of "Al"...

Example: Min Dhi gallak? Who told you. i Classical Arabic: Min Aldhi Gallak/Qallak?

• I am not really sure if Yemeni is the closest to Quarni Arabic? (especially Meccan siwar of the holy Quran), But thats up to modern Yemenis to decide--Skatewalk 21:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey Skatewalk, that's quite a list of regional dialects withing Yemen. When I started this article I was really just trying to get some of the basics down, but it would be great if you could add all of the dialects that you just mentioned. The truth is that there is probably a different dialect in every village of yemen if you consider them closely enough. I'm not sure that I agree with you on the Akhdam, however. They definitely speak differently than other Yemenis, but I don't think that there is one consistent "Akhdam" dialect throughout Yemen. When I lived there my (Yemeni) friends claimed that the Akhdam dialect was derived from Tihami dialects, although that's not necessarily true... It seems like every dialect probably has some sub-dialect spoken by the Akhdam. See if you can't add a few subheadings to the article, if you have the time. Solumanculver 19:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Adeni Arabic

"Adeni Arabic substitutes dental fricatives for dental plosives, [θ] becomes [t], [ð] becomes [d] and the two (classical) emphatic interdental fricative [ð̣] and the emphatic dental plosive [ḍ] are both merged into one sound, namely [ḍ]."

I think that Adeni Arabic uses [ð̣] instead of [ḍ]. Can anyone verify this? I remember being surprised at this fact when I lived in Yemen because Adenis don't use the unemphatic fricatives at all. But in the emphatic form I think they do.

There is a book on Adeni Arabic that I used to own that would be able to clear this question up. Does anybody have it? I think it was called "Adeni Arabic".Solumanculver 17:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

• Reply:

In Adeni Arabic [ḍ] is always used. However, in some quarters of the city and in the speech of some speakers who have affiliation to the hinterland, [ð̣] is used. Generally speaking, the [ð̣]~ [ḍ] can be seen as a sociolinguistic alternation: in young people and female speech [ḍ] is more common.

The Yafi'i Arabic Dialect

The sentence "Yafi'i confuses the classical sounds [ġain](...) and [qāf], pronouncing them, respectively [qain] and [ġāf]" is unclear, because the first half of the sentence means that Yafi'i pronounces the letters <ġ> and in the same (unspecified) way – a not too surprising phenomenon even if uncommon in Arabic – and the second half of the sentence means that Yafi'i pronounces [q] for Classical ġ, and conversely [ġ] for Classical q – such criss-crossing being an extremely uncommon phenomenon. A third possible interpretation (assuming inaccurate wording), would be that Yafi'i speakers have [ġ] for Classical q in *some* words (perhaps most everyday words) and [q] for Classical ġ in some *other* words (perhaps by hypercorrection in words more related to the religious, intellectual, commercial or technical domains). In this case, Yafi'i could be expected not to be uniform, but to vary in this respect according to the background and the attitude of speakers. I wonder what the real situation is. --Zxly (talk) 13:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• Reply: The [ġain]~[qāf] alternation is also common in other Arabic dialects including Suadanese, Kuwaiti, Sur (Oman) as well as some other Yemeni dialects like LaHji and Abyani. It seems that it is a process of "criss-crossing". In careful speech a lot of hypercorrection is made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.154.153.153 (talk) 15:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

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Hi, I wrote that section on Yafi'i, sorry it's so unclear. It's like your possibility two, Yafi'i pronounces [q] for Classical ġ, and conversely [ġ] for Classical q. It is a systematic feature that occurs uniformly in all speech, not just in specialized words. It's not a hypercorrection, which is a very different phenomenon that occurs, for instance, in the sudan.

In the Sudan people are generally unable to pronounce the classical Qaaf, so in certain formal words they approximate it with a ghain, a form of hypercorrection. In Yafi' the sounds Qaaf and Ghain are systematically switched in everyday words, and even when speaking standard arabic Yafi'i speakers have a tendency to make that switch.

You're right, the phrase "Yafi'i confuses the classical sounds [ġain](...) and [qāf]" does seem to say that they pronounce them the same, that is not correct and should be changed.

As for the dialects of LaHj and Abyaan, I'm not sure if they share this feature with Yafi'i... But I'm certain that the situation in Yafi' with respect to these consonants is very different that the situation in the sudan and kuwait.

I'll try to clean that section up 71.229.63.50 (talk) 03:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

"Somaliland"

When I say I'm looking for a source that says Yemeni Arabic is spoken in "Somaliland", I don't mean a map that shows Yemeni Arabic being spoken in northwestern Somalia. I mean a source that actually uses the word "Somaliland" to refer to the area in question. This so-called country has no international recognition at all, and including it in the list of countries where Yemeni Arabic is spoken puts undue weight on the minority POV that such a country exists. If all the sources we find about Yemeni Arabic - even if most of the sources we find about Yemeni Arabic - say the language is spoken in Yemen and Somalia, with no mention of "Somaliland", then that's what the article should reflect. Anything else is fringe-theory POV-pushing. +Angr 05:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I've asked the NPOV noticeboard for more comments. +Angr 05:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Somaliland is a de facto entity in northwestern Somalia. If a map that you, yourself, have accepted as a valid map shows the region of Somaliland as having Yemeni Arabic speakers, then Somaliland can be listed. I'm going to add italics on Somaliland as we have with South Ossetia and Abkhazia in other instances (Ossetic language, Abkhaz language, for example), but the fact that you don't want to include Somaliland for whatever reason doesn't change the fact that Wikipedia considers NPOV on the issue to be de facto but not de jure, just as it treats Northern Cyprus, South Ossetia, Transnistria, etc. See List of sovereign states for a discussion and for the consensus position that these states should be listed and that to ignore them is POV. --Taivo (talk) 07:20, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

The cases are not comparable. Ossetic is not spoken in Georgia outside South Ossetia, nor is Abkhaz spoken in Georgia outside Abkhazia (to any significant degree, I mean; I'm sure there are isolated speakers outside those territories). Also, Ossetic is the primary language of South Ossetia and Abkhaz is the primary language of Abkhazia So listing South Ossetia as the place where Ossetic is spoken and listing Abkhazia as the place where Abkhaz is spoken is true regardless of whether one considers South Ossetia and Abkhazia sovereign states or not. The same two conditions largely hold for Turkish in Northern Cyprus and Ukrainian in Transnistria - the language is the predominant language in the disputed area, and is hardly used in the rest of the country. But as your map shows, Yemeni Arabic is spoken throughout Somalia, not just in the Somaliland part; also, Yemeni Arabic is not the predominant language anywhere there. The other reason the comparison with Ossetic, Abkhaz, etc., is invalid is that South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Northern Cyprus are recognized by some states (even Transnistria is recognized by other unrecognized states); Somaliland is not recognized by anyone. Somaliland in fact meets our definition of a micronation: "Micronations... are entities that claim to be independent nations or states but which are not recognized by world governments or major international organizations", and I certainly don't want people to start adding every English-speaking micronation to the infobox at English language. By listing Somaliland separately, you're implying that the reader ought to think that "Somalia" alone implies "Somalia excluding Somaliland", and of course no reader would think that. It would be different if this were an article about a language that was predominantly spoken in Somaliland and not in the rest of Somalia, but it isn't. +Angr 18:18, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

If you have a problem with the consensus on the status of Somaliland at List of sovereign states, then you need to take it up there. By consensus it is listed as one of the "other states" there. Beyond that article, we use that list to determine de facto entities for things such as country lists in the language template. If you have a problem with the existence or use of Somaliland, then the appropriate place to discuss it is at List of sovereign states, not here. I removed the POV tag because that tag is when there is significant content that is disputed within the text of the article, such as at articles dealing with religious artifacts and texts. The only item under dispute here is whether to list Somaliland or not. That is such a minor piece of information that the use of the POV tag is just pointy editing. I removed it because it was a ridiculous addition. --Taivo (talk) 18:52, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you should submit this to a formal RfC. It doesn't seem like your posting at the NPOV page is drawing any interest. --Taivo (talk) 18:56, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd say it was the addition of "Somaliland" to this article in the first place that was pointy and ridiculous. The way Somaliland is listed at List of sovereign states has nothing to do with this article - its independence and recognition status is relevant to that list and can be discussed and put in context there. But in this article, you would have us simply blatantly state that the term "Somalia" necessarily excludes Somaliland, without any discussion or contextualization (since that would be beyond the scope of the article) - and that jeopardizes the neutrality of the article as a whole, especially since the claim that Somaliland is a completely separate country from Somalia is made in the very first sentence of the article. +Angr 19:14, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I strongly agree with User:Taivo on this. If you have a problem with Somaliland being considered a state within Wikipedia, then take it up elsewhere. We refer to all states in a neutral manner; we include both Chinas in articles, what is the difference in your mind here. I would support a move to RfC here. Outback the koala (talk) 21:44, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Good points Angr. None of the cited references that supposedly indicate that the Yemeni dialect of Arabic is spoken in the Somaliland region of Somalia even mention any 'Somaliland'; they only mention Somalia. For starters, the first source is a map of Omani Arab settlements in the larger region (as the map's legend indicates); it's not even a language map, much less one of the Yemeni Arab dialect. The second ref, for its part, only states that "in northern Somalia the Yemeni and Hadhramaut dialects of Arabic are used as second languages, especially by traders". That reference to Yemeni Arabic being spoken in 'northern Somalia' could just as easily be an allusion to the northeastern Puntland region as the northwestern Somaliland region or parts or all of both. The point is, no one really knows, and insisting that one does is likewise clearly original research. Middayexpress (talk) 22:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Middayexpress, you don't understand what "original research" includes and does not include. Looking at a map and referring to that map is not "original research". If you actually read the map, Middayexpress, instead of just cherry-picking what you want to see on it, you will notice that the label at the top is "Arab, Yemen" and that the major portion of the speech community is in southern Yemen, indicating the region where Yemeni Arabic is mainly spoken. The small box is mislabelled. This map is also attached to the article on Yemeni Arabic in Somalia. --Taivo (talk) 21:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but the map does not state "Yemeni Arabic" anywhere on it. And claiming that it does is indeed original research. In the legend, where it explains what the shaded colors on the map actually mean, it states "The Omani Arab" (not "Yemeni Arabic"), with the dark striped color representing the "scattered distribution in Somalia" of those Arabs and the light striped color signifying their "presence in neighbouring countries". It is a demographic map, not a linguistic one. And FYI, the present dispute has its origins in an old dispute over a page called "Somali Arabic" that was re-directed to the Yemeni Arabic article, a re-direction that was decided in a discussion that I personally initiated (the present topic was also linked to from the mediation case, btw). Middayexpress (talk) 22:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

At the top of the map is "Arab, Yemen" clearly printed as the overall label and the map is included at the overall entry for Yemeni Arabs in Somalia. While the legend on the map does, indeed, say "The Omani Arab", it is clearly mislabeled since it does not include the region where Omani Arabic is spoken, but only includes the region where Yemeni Arabic is spoken. The site's entry for Omani Arab in Somalia doesn't even use that map because it is not "Omani Arabic". WP:OR does not preclude using your brain to evaluate sources, correct them where necessary, and interpret them where the meaning is clearly visible to an NPOV reader. --Taivo (talk) 23:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Now, now; no need to get uncivil. You suggest above that the map is indeed a linguistic one. However, you are unfortunately again mistaken since the text on the actual map clearly states "The Omani Arab", as I have indicated above, not "The Yemeni Arab" let alone "Yemeni Arabic". The legend in that map likewise only refers to the distribution of Omani Arabs in the country, not even to Yemeni Arabs, despite what the text above the actual map (i.e. the "Arab, Yemeni of Somalia") indicates. This "Arab, Yemeni of Somalia" text was later added by the Joshua Project to the section of that page on their website above the map, whereas the map itself is sourced to something called the Bethany World Prayer Center and does not include that text. That Joshua Project website seems to add that additional sort of text to all or many of its profiles. This is also why much of the profile in question discusses Omani Arabs rather than Yemeni Arabs, clearly a weird mix-up on the Joshua Project's part. Middayexpress (talk) 00:23, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) But if you actually look at the map, it is crystal clear that it is not a map of "Omani Arabs", but of Yemeni Arabs. There's no real question about what the map refers to despite what the label on the legend says. That's what I mean by carefully evaluating your sources. You cannot just blindly use a source. And in this part of the world, ethnicity and linguistics more often than not overlap. But until the issue in mediation is resolved, then the status quo should remain in place. --Taivo (talk) 03:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

You're right. There is no real question what the map shows: it clearly states "The Omani Arabs" and not the "Yemeni Arabs", much less "Yemeni Arabic". That is, after all, what the legend on the map itself indicates. For your argument to be plausible (i.e. that the legend on the map itself is what's actually wrong here and not simply the text that the Joshua Project later added to the top of the page over the map), then you would have to produce some sort of explanation as to why the entire description of the Arab group in question on the left-hand side of the profile page describes Omani Arabs and not Yemeni Arabs. The part that begins: "The Omani Arab represent less than one percent of Somalia's population. It is believed that they immigrated to Somalia from Oman during the nineteenth century...". I'll save you the trouble and tell you: it's because the map only ever pertained to Omani Arab settlements, just like its legend indicates. The edit at hand is therefore clearly OR. Whatever happens in the mediation won't change that. The latter might possibly have mattered if the sources did indeed indicate that this dialect is spoken in the Somaliland region. But they don't, so it's irrelevant. Middayexpress (talk) 22:34, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I can't really believe that you are so tied to literalism and unable to evaluate the evidence. Do you actually think that the map shows the distribution of Omani Arabs, when the primary locus of the population is in Yemen, exactly where Yemeni Arabs are the most numerous population? Please open your eyes and look at the map. I don't believe that you have actually looked at it and are just lost in the mislabeling. If you think that Wikipedia prohibits the exercise of intellectual observation, then you have a very skewed opinion of Wikipedia. --Taivo (talk) 22:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Age

It's important to mention when Yemeni Arabic appeared. YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 22:02, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Somali Arabic

Somalis speak their own langauge and this source was used to cite that Yemeni Arabic is being spoken in Somalia [1] but there is no mentioning whatsoever that Yemeni Arabic is used in Somalia and Djibouti! Yemeni Arabic is made of several dialects and non of them are used in Somalia. The source provided fails to prove that. It clearly states that Somali language borrowed a lot of words from Arabic in general not Yemen. One sentence mentions that Yemeni Arabic is being used as a second language in northern Somalia especially by traders. Is that enough to include Somalia and Djibouti in the article? It's being used in Southern Saudi Arabia because it's a native dialect of the people where the case in Somalia is different. --يوسف حسين (talk) 09:45, 12 February 2014 (UTC)