Anthere do you have the link ?
Lir here it is from another page's history
Lir http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_review_of_administrative_actions&diff=4332256&oldid=4331908
TreyHarris DavidGerard: right... often does mean not always, doesn't it? or is that a cultural difference, does often mean always in... oh. New York. nevermind ;-)
TreyHarris lol
Lir *Guanaco banned me, accusing me of sockpuppetry. He provided no evidence of this, he unilaterally banned me without quickpoll, discussing the issue with me, or following any of the various dispute processes. An examination of this page's history, shows that Guanaco has repeatedly violated the procedures for banning. [[User:Lir|Lirath Q. Pynnor]]
TheCustomOfLife I had a blonde moment.
TheCustomOfLife http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Kerr_Scott
sannse thanks Lir - looking
TheCustomOfLife I saw that and I thought, ooh, is that the gay guy from Dawson's Creek?
Lir also notable, is the fact that he banned me over an edit dispute; which must be worse than protecting a page
Anthere Lir
Anthere do fill a new request on the relevant page please
Anthere with relevant links
Lir its already been deleted
Anthere hte article ?
Lir if i add it again, ill probably get banned for that
Anthere what was the article ?
Lir http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment&action=edit§ion=4
BillyH Out of interest, Anthere, why do you keep putting a space before the question mark ? ;P
BillyH *;)
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Anthere because I am french
sannse http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia%3ARequests_for_review_of_administrative_actions&diff=0&oldid=4332256
Lir http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Guanaco&action=edit <---deleted
=-= Guanaway is now known as Guanaco
BillyH Ah, right
sannse It was deleted from there to move to Request for review of admin actions
Jamesday Trey, I'm not sure what to make of it - the lack of an edit comment is a problem.
Anthere all this is very unclear to me
sannse wyere it lasted an hour before being reverted
Jamesday I see some other recipe changes in contributions but can't tell if they are changing to personal preferences or correcting or whatever because I'm not much interested in recipes and don't know what to expect in them.:)
DavidGerard goes to bed
DavidGerard have fun all
sannse night DavidGerard
DavidGerard and boy are you going to have fun
Grunt` grunts
sannse you still unclear Anthere?
Jamesday Good night DavidGerard:)
Anthere yes sannse
Anthere I hardly know how these pages are working
Anthere so really do not see the problem
sannse the origonal was at [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Guanaco]]
Lir well i donno where it is now
Lir but it sure isnt resolving the issue
sannse that was deleted - because it was in the wrong place
Anthere and ?
sannse the text was moved to [[Wikipedia:Requests for review of administrative actions]]
Anthere okay, then ?
sannse where it lasted about an hour before being blanked
Guanaco no, [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Guanaco]] was deleted because it expired
blankfaze blankfazes
Comrade_Nick bye people
Guanaco it lasted for 48 hours without certification
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Anthere you delete request for comment ?
Guanaco no
Guanaco someone else did
sannse cur) (last) 16:40, 28 Jun 2004 Lir
Lir it may have "expired' but its still a legitimate complaint
Anthere I mean why are request for comments deleted ?
sannse cur) (last) 17:01, 28 Jun 2004 UninvitedCompany m (Reverted edits by Lir to last version by Mirv)
Anthere and why did uc revert ?
Lir so that sysops dont get criticized
Anthere give good answer please Lir
Anthere what is expired ?
Anthere if no one comment in 48 hours, then it is expired ?
Lir i guess my complaint is expired
Guanaco ant: yes
Guanaco 2 people have to certify the dispute
Anthere Guanaco, what do you think of Lir complaint ?
sannse ah I see - the move was the other way round from "revew" to "request" ugg sorry
Anthere I would be happy to know what happened
entmoot_ Anthere: the certification req was apparently added because of sysops complaining about too many requests for review. see: [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for review of administrative action]]
Lir he banned me over an edit dispute
Guanaco i understand it, but i feel that what i did was correct based on what i thought to be true at the time
Lir it wasnt a valid reason, u can't ban people like that
Lir its an abuse of power
Anthere wait Lir
entmoot_ [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for review of administrative actions]]
Guanaco i thought [[User:YES]], et al, were lir and not michael
Anthere Guanaco, do you agree that you banned Lir, because of some sock puppet issue ?
Guanaco yes
Anthere where these sock puppet banned ?
Anthere were
Lir if I thought Jimbo Wales was Adolf Hitler, I wouldnt be justified in banning him
Guanaco yes
Lir Guanaco banned them as well
Anthere where they banned before ?
sannse what were the socks banned for
Guanaco later i found out from tim starling that the socks were michael
BillyH Who, Adolf Hitler and Jimbo Wales?
Anthere why were they banned ?
Lir he banned a whole bunch of people without evidence
Anthere give me one of these sock name please ?
Guanaco [[User:YES]], [[User:Yuna]], [[User:Yuna's Revenge]]
Anthere okay
Lir lol Yuna's Revenge
Anthere so , what happened ?
Anthere Yes was banned
Anthere by someone
Anthere right ?
Guanaco by me
Lir by Guanaco
Anthere why ?
Guanaco i thought it was a illegitimate sockpuppet of lir
Anthere was Lir banned then ?
=-= gwicke is now known as gwicke|away
Guanaco not by that autoblock
Guanaco it was actually michael editing from AOL
Anthere so, you thought that Lir was editing under two names, right ?
Anthere (more actually, but I simplify)
Guanaco yes
sannse so lir and the socks were banned only because they were (or were thought to be) socks?
Anthere were they vandalising wikipedia ?
Guanaco yes
Lir im actually a sock of Ed Poor
Anthere were they vandalising wikipedia ?
sannse we've known that one for year Lir
Guanaco borderline vandalism - constant reverts against community consensus
Lir heh
Lir community consensus is such a deceptive term
Anthere how did you define community consensus ?
blankfaze Lir, not really.
blankfaze it's pretty straightforward.
Lir nah
Lir not when you can't really measure consensus, and dissenters are banned
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blankfaze Sure you can measure consensus.
Lir in theory
Guanaco everyone agrees that that ugly NPOV notice should not be there
SethIlys consensus is 100% agreement.
Lir even I agree
blankfaze People vote. Whatever the majority votes for is a consensus.
Lir Im not interested in an ugly NPOV notice
Anthere what make you think they were Lir ?
Lir im interested in a notation, within the opening, that it be indicated that there is academic dispute over Hussein's name
Jamesday blankfaze, tha'ts a good definition of what consensus isn't:)
Lir I don't understand the question Anthere.
blankfaze Oh, I just looked it it, I see i'm wrong.
Anthere Guanaco: what made you think YES was Lir ?
blankfaze Well, I feel uneducated!
Lir its ok blankfaze
Guanaco the fact that lir had used ESH before
blankfaze Well sort of.
Lir ESH?
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Guanaco and YES's actions
blankfaze It depends on what definition you go with.
Anthere ESH ?
blankfaze Dictionary.com gives 3.
Guanaco editing saddam hussein
blankfaze one of which is "agreement of the majority in sentiment or belief"
Anthere okay, so just the fact Lir had used a sock puppet another day ?
Jamesday blankfaze, trying to find a solution which all or very close to all can agree to accept would qualify as consensus. A vote short-circuits that process and can be used as a measure to ignore the views of the minority instead of trying to account for them and satisfy them as well as the majority.
Anthere another argument ?
Lir EDH never acted as a sockpuppet, if you define a sockpuppet as agreeing with or voting with the owner
blankfaze Jamesday: true, true.
Lir and ESH wasn't me regardless
Guanaco there is strong evidence to the contrary
Lir not really
Lir there is strong evidence that ESH was on the same IP
sannse I don't define a sock puppet that way Lir - a second undisclosed account for any reason is a sock
Anthere Guanaco, your only argument for saying Lir was YES is that Lir had aloready used a sock puppet herself ?
Lir but even if ESH was me, which ESH wasn't -- ESH's didnt commit any crimes
Lir sure sannse, but having a second account isn't criminal either -- a LOT of users have them
Anthere had socks
Lir Wik was Anthere's sock
sannse no, I dislike them, but agree they are perfectly legal
Guanaco and 'editing saddam hussein' was used for editing saddam hussein
Jamesday Sannse, depends in part on the use of the account but in general I agree - and I think I have all of my own accounts listed on my primary user page.
Anthere YES was editing Saddam Hussein I understand
Lir I showed up at the Saddam Hussein article because I felt ESH had made some legitimate edits there
Anthere where the edits the same ?
Anthere were
SethIlys We don't know of any situation where a user gained admin status through two different accounts, do we?
Guanaco yes
Anthere hates hhhhh
Lir i have three sysop accounts
sannse that I don't mind - it's the deception I feel from socks that I dislike (but again, they are not forbiden)
Anthere did you ask other people opinion on that suspicion ?
Jamesday Yes, the deceptive uses are problematic, particularly in arguments.
Anthere did you ask a developer to do an ip check ?
=== Guanaco <~Guanaco@ip68-102-29-237.ks.ok.cox.net> “...”
=== Guanaco: member of #mediawiki and #wikipedia
=== Guanaco: attached to irc.freenode.net “http://freenode.net/”
=== Guanaco is an identified user
=== Guanaco: idle for 1 seconds (on since Wed, Jun 30, 2004 4:54:43 AM)
--- End of WHOIS information for Guanaco
Lir the arguments themselves are a problem, 90% of users are incoherent
Lir like that guy that was going on about plasma tornadoes
Anthere Guanacono
Anthere :-)
Jamesday Lir, tolerance is the best solution I have for that - those who are more capable than average have little practical choice but to deal with such things.
sannse Anthere I realise you are trying to get all in information, but if the ban was on socks alone (with no vandalism from the main account or the socks) then were is the authority to ban?
Lir Im extremely tolerant, the problem is people aren't tolerant of me.
blankfaze likes plasma tornadoes!
Anthere Guanaco: how long was Lir banned ?
Lir not long
|<-- Fargon has left irc.freenode.net ("So Long!")
Anthere how much is not long ? who unbanned you ?
Lir Guanaco did I believe
Lysine is "kmq" a unit of measurement or a typo for km sq?
Lir after someone told him to
Anthere good
Anthere did you Guanaco ?
Lir kilomegaquarsecs
Anthere what is illegitimate sockpuppetry Guanaco ?
Anthere I think Sannse said sock puppetry was legitimate ???
Lir what im looking for is not so much punishment of Guanaco, but a renewed emphasis on "rule of law" and such things as rights and what have you
Jamesday Lysine, it appears to be a real measure for areas in relation to population studies, perhaps in other fields.
Anthere I know Lir
Lir not to mention more of an effort at resolving edit disputes in a less totalitarian fashion
Anthere Guanaco though he was doing right
Jamesday So asking the person who wrote it to explain it or link it seems like the best course.
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Lysine Jamesday: hmm... ok
Anthere Guanaco: did you unblock Lir yourself ? and what is illegitimate sockpuppetry ?
Anthere who says that exist ?
Lir really, all I want is for the Hussein article to note that there is dispute over his name
sannse As far as I know there is no rule against multiple accounts - there may be in using them to vote twice or to add several coments to the same discussion (making it appear this is more support)
Anthere that dispute has been going on for days :-(
Lir but Anthere, it hasn't been going on
Lir there are arguing over what his name should be
Lir rather than whether the dispute should be mentioned
Lir thats all I want
Lir if the article uses "Saddam", I'm not going to worry too much about it
Lir as long as it prominently mentions the dispute
Guanaco we could use a combination of "Saddam", "Hussein", and "Saddam Hussein"
Lir i dont much care what we use
Lir i just care that it be mentioned that there is dispute on the subject
Lir and its not just dispute at the wikipedia
Anthere Guanaco: about my questions ?
Lir heck, the formal legal charges against Saddam use Majid as his last name; yet, the wiki article acts as if Majid isnt applicable at all
Guanaco but that dispute used section headers in nowiki tags like ==this== and referred to a non-existent section
Lir right GUanaco, but u could have edited it
Lir instead of deleting it
Lir i dont have a problem with edits
Lir deletings irritate me though
Lir and that section did exist, before it was deleted
Guanaco wasn't it made into a footnote?
Lir yes, and thats the problem
Lir it should be slightly more than a footnote
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Lir there should be a brief mention of it in the opening
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Guanaco ant: yes, and illegitimate sockpuppetry would be using multiple sockpuppets to get around the three revert limit in edit wars and making sockpuppet votes
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Lir what votes were made?
TheCustomOfLife http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Haut
TheCustomOfLife She needs to be directed to ancestry.com
Grunt` Custom: now might not be the time to interrupt.
Guanaco that doesn't exactly apply here
Anthere I understand well the danger of sock puppet in votes
TheCustomOfLife But...woman....genealogy...stuff
Anthere but right now, it is not illegal
Anthere only a problem for votes
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Anthere I have two last questions Guanaco
Anthere na, three :-)
Anthere the first is simply "did you apology for your mistake to Lir" ?
Anthere the second is "do you think you were being right when you did it, ie, following a rule" (and not realising you were not) ?
Anthere the third is "do you think you will do it again, because you think it should be the correct way " ?
Guanaco 1. no, i didn't, and i should have, but i was frustrated by the RfC
Anthere nod
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=-= Mode #wikipedia +o brion by ChanServ
Lir -o brion
Guanaco 2. at the time i thought i was, because it seemed to be a clear abuse of sockpuppets, but it was actually one of michael's mind games
BillyH What is it with people deopping themself in here?
Grunt` BillyH: shh.
Anthere I do not want to force you to say "I wont do it again"
Guanaco 3. i may do it again, depending on the circumstances, if IP and other evidence shows that the accounts are the same person
Anthere I mostly want to do your opinion
Jamesday BillyH, it's a convention of this IRC network. to redice trouble with those who dislike authority or ,ight seek ops just as a status symbol
Anthere so, the issues are
blankfaze wonders where i can pick up a list of the members of the evil cabal
Anthere 1. define circumstances
Anthere 2. what is evidence
sannse Guanaco: I take it clearer guidelines would help in helping you to decide which situations applied?
