Talk:St Davids

[Untitled]

I removed the ref to Exeter Station - sorry but felt it was just too tangential to stay.

I agree. If it's to stay it should be on a separate page. Marnanel 00:14, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I removed it again. I cannot see why it needs to be here. It just isn't close enough to warrant a mention. 138.37.188.109 16:30, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Tŷddewi

Should it be "Tyddewi"? Do you need the accent in a compound word? I mean, nobody writes "Caernarfôn". 66.92.237.111 17:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

That's correct. See the 'Cymraeg' interwiki link for example. Gareth 15:25, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

St. David's, Ontario, Canada

Sadly, my home town of St. David's in Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario, Canada is not represented on Wikipedia, although it's neighbouring villiages of Queenston and Virgil are described. How do I create a page for St. Davids, Ontario, Canada, without making confusion with St.Davids, in the UK? Might it be appropriate to create a redirect page that arises from the search "St. Davids," at which Wikipedia visitors could choose:

• St.Davids, Pembrokeshire, Wales, United Kingdom
• St.Davids, Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario, Canada

Thanks for your help. Can't wait to contribute to the page for my town. Cheers. --Marc Yarascavitch 09:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Just create a St David's, Ontario page for now and if Wikipedians think that a disambig page is needed then this page can be moved at a later date. Owain (talk) 10:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Apostrophe?

I'm somewhat confused by the apostrophe included in the city name "St David's"? Surely the correct title is "St Davids"? Whether grammatically appropriate or not, the term I remember (having lived there for 5 years) was always used without the apostrophe. E.g. see the website www.stdavids.co.uk, or indeed any of the official websites at the bottom of the article page. I will therefore attempt to modify this site accordingly, though as new to wikipedia, not sure how to modify the title. DoctorMartin 18:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, odd. Ordnance Survey maps clearly have an apostrophe in ([1]), but locals seem to prefer to not have one (eg. [2], [3]). Google hits are inconclusive: "st davids" pembrokeshire [4] gets 211,000 whilst "st david's" pembrokeshire gets only 118,000 [5]; on the other hand, "st david's" wales gets 424,000 [6] whilst "st davids" wales gets only 346,000 [7]. Can anyone confirm the official name? If it is "St Davids", then pages will need to be moved as wikilinks are breaking all over the place at then moment. DWaterson 19:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

see: [8]: St David's, Pembrokeshire, for the city, Cathedral and St David's Head, but the Bishop of St Davids does not take the apostrophe Agathoclea 21:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

see also http://www.dca.gov.uk/constitution/city/citygj.htm#part6 for spelling. Agathoclea 20:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Obviously usage is somewhat confused, but the references cited by Agathoclea are not particularly authoritative. However, the City's own council presumably is. Please check: http://www.stdavids.gov.uk/. The form WITHOUT the apostrophe is correct (in the sense of being both the more common usage and that preferred locally by the people who know). It also is more consistent with other towns in Britain (St Andrews, St Neots). I recommend this article be moved. --Doric Loon (talk) 20:09, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Whithorn

I'm told Whithorn in south west Scotland is also a city. But is the population smaller? --MacRusgail 16:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I suspect you have been mislead. The places with City status in Scotland are Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness, and Stirling. Cheers, DWaterson 17:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

English names, etc

I have changed Tyddewi, Cymru and St Dafydd (sic) to their English forms in this English Wikipedia article. There's plenty of opportunity to use Welsh in the rather rudimentary cy:Wicipedia article. I also took out the reference to Little England beyond Wales since, as the latter article shows, St David's is not in it. . . . .LinguisticDemographer 16:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

St David's and the Cathedral Close

User:Skinsmoke has edited this article several times to state that the official name of the town is "St David's and the Cathedral Close" rather than "St David's". I can find no evidence to support this claim. St David's and the Cathedral Close is clearly the name of the Community which currently holds the city charter. However the London Gazette states that the city charter was conferred on "the Town of St Davids"[9] and the name of the electoral division of Pembrokeshire County Council is called "St David's". Therefore, if there are no objections, I will revert these changes. DWaterson (talk) 18:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, it was not me who made the most recent edit adding St David's and the Cathedral Close as the official title. Please check the History and you will see that it was User:Cuchullain on 27 July 2009.

The only organisation in Wales entitled to describe itself as a "town" is a community. The situation is set out on Wikipedia under community :-

"Community councils in Wales are identical to English parish councils in terms of their powers and the way they operate. Welsh community councils may call themselves town councils unilaterally and may have city status granted by the Crown. In Wales, all town councils are community councils. There are currently two communities with city status: Bangor and St David's. The Chair of a town council or city council will usually have the title Mayor (Welsh: maer). However, not every community has a council. In communities with populations too small to justify a full community council, community meetings may be established."

Prior to the award of city status, St David's Community Council had adopted "town" status, presumably because they thought this would enhance their application to become a city, or so the chairman would be titled mayor. The conferring of city status on the "town" was therefore conferral on the community. You might also care to take a look at St David's City Council's website, which states :-

"St.Davids City Council represents the people of St.Davids, the smallest City in Wales and the United Kingdom, having a population of nearly 1600 on the last electoral roll.

Situated at the tip of the south western peninsula of Wales, St.Davids is where St.David, the patron saint of Wales, was born and established his work. The Christian tradition he created in the 6th century is reflected in the Celtic heritage of this part of the County of Pembrokeshire area and the St.Davids Cathedral was built in the valley where he worked.

The exposed peninsula is famous for its dramatic coastal scenery and its wildlife that appeals to those who enjoy natural history and outdoor pursuits.

The City status of St.Davids, while having ecclesiastical roots going back for centuries, was granted to all of St.Davids by HM the Queen by Royal Charter on 1st June 1995.

The City Council, or the City Council of St.Davids and the Cathedral Close to give its full name, is a Community Council in its role and statutory powers. This site introduces the council and its services, as well as providing links to the Pembrokeshire County Council and Pembrokeshire Coast National Park Authority, as the organisations providing key public services in the area."

I am really not sure why you object so strongly to including this information. Personally, I think it's a rather silly name and, interestingly, doesn't appear to be matched in Welsh, where the city seems to be called merely Tyddewi. However, it is something that makes the city unique, it is verifiable, and it is noteworthy.

If you still want further clarification, I suggest you email the Clerk of St David's City Council at clerk@stdavids.co.uk.

Skinsmoke (talk) 07:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Aha, I see the source of your error in your line, "The only organisation in Wales entitled to describe itself as a "town" is a community." This is disputed because this article is not about the town as an administrative structure, it is about the place. A settlement is de facto called by whatever it is known as; a Community is an administrative structure created by government. Therefore, I dispute that the settlement is called 'St David's and the Cathedral Close' because it is located within the Community of 'St David's and the Cathedral Close'. I am of the opinion that the settlement is known as 'St David's' and is located within a Community called 'St David's and the Cathedral Close'. I would comment that this is a debate that has been had on several occasions before elsewhere on Wikipedia. DWaterson (talk) 22:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

If you want it to be purely about the settlement within the community, then all reference to St David's being a city needs to be removed. The settlement does not hold city status. I understand the argument about the settlement of Carlisle being different from the City of Carlisle, but are you really proposing that, for a place with a population of less than 1,800, Wikipedia should have two articles, one for the community/city/ecclesiastical parish and one for the group of houses at the centre of it? Such a solution would be nonsensical, and would only lead to confusion. I would have thought it shouldn't be too hard to cobble up some sort of wording that keeps the article as one, but mentions the community/city's official title. In any case, the lead needs rewriting: the present wording is apalling! Skinsmoke (talk) 05:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

As a follow on, I am looking to edit the article to clarify the situation of the status of 'smallest city'. As stated above, the honour is held by the community (parish), and not the settlement. Therefore it stands that the smallest 'city' label is only said in respect to the St Davids urban area. However, the status is only given to mean the built up area if there is no existing public body, so the statement is somewhat contentious. Articles used to research these include City status in the United Kingdom, List of cities in the United Kingdom and List of smallest cities in the United Kingdom. Judging it by community area would make it much larger than other cities, and put the City of London as the smallest. As I am sure this status instils a local sense of pride, and there could be some disappointment at the sake of clarification, so I thought it would be prudent to post it here first, to get Wiki members ideas of the best approach.

I will continue to post up a map of the city and list several hamlets which are within the boundaries of the city, as these don't appear to be covered in the article.
The Equalizer (talk) 17:03, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Please excuse me, but on further review, the grant is nowadays usually to the town, and not the administration area, as the table here.

The Equalizer (talk) 12:14, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

That is not correct - it is as I first stated, it is granted in respect of the whole council area, see the added ref. Only cities in Scotland get an exemption from this at initial application, although there are cities without councils (and hence formal boundaries) throughout the UK due to subsequent changes in local government.

The Equalizer (talk) 11:25, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

References

Proposed move

OK, nobody has responded to my comment above. I am now giving notice that if nobody else joins a debate, I will move this article to St Davids. The spelling with the apostrophe is not uncommon, but the spelling without the apostrophe is more common, and is used by the town's own institutions - see the council website cited above. Does anyone have verifiable evidence that would speak against the move? --Doric Loon (talk) 08:41, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

The Council's usage is not compelling evidence for a move and the grammatically correct form is better until it becomes very uncommon. Other official usage is not going to change just because the Council uses 'St Davids'.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 08:50, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

But the form WITHOUT the apostrophe is more grammatically correct, because British placenames based on the old possessive of a saint's name do not normally have an apostrophe. See St Andrews, St Neots etc. We can debate about what is compelling, but the usage of a town council is a pretty authoritative source for the spelling of the town name, and no comparable authority has been cited in the other direction. In town matters you don't get more official than the council. The google test also indicates that frequency is on the side of a move. --Doric Loon (talk) 13:13, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

The local newspaper can't make up its mind. Agathoclea (talk) 13:23, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

If the s is possessive then is should either be removed entirely St David or be there with an apostrophe, it may have fallen out of use due to ignorance, but that doesn't suddenly make it grammatically correct. 82.33.106.245 (talk) 21:27, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually it can. If you look more closely at those, they are quite consistent: St Davids is the town, but when the reference is to the saint you get St David's Cathedral, St David's Day etc. The locals are making a distinction which you will also find, say, in St Andrews. Outsiders are obviously confused because they don't see the rule. --Doric Loon (talk) 13:29, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, 95% consistent. Agathoclea is right that the newspaper contains odd examples where they break their own rule. --Doric Loon (talk) 13:34, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Support - btw Agathoclea (talk) 14:26, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Since Felix Folio Secundus has changed his mind, we seem to have a consensus. I would be happier if more than three people had commented, but they've had plenty of time. I shall proceed with the move now. I can't do it myself, though, coz a redirect needs to be deleted. I'll try to find an admin. --Doric Loon (talk) 13:47, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion. Certain prominent sources use the apostrophe, but it appears that the version without the apostrophe is more commonly used. - GTBacchus^(talk) 00:09, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

---

St David's → St Davids –

• A discussion on talk page seems to have achieved consensus. However, the move requires deleting a redirect, so I can't do it myself. --Doric Loon (talk) 14:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have to say that I can see no real consensus, since only three people took part in the discussion. St David's is the form given in the Bartholomew Gazetteer of Britain, which I would usually take to be pretty definitive. However, I do note that locals seem to prefer St Davids. -- Necrothesp (talk) 20:13, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
    • I agree with that (the bit about the three people) - in fact I said something similar before - but another week on the question is how to get more views. Is there a forum we can attract attention on? I mean one with real Welsh 'Pedians on it? --Doric Loon (talk) 21:04, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
      • There is Wikipedia:Welsh Wikipedians' notice board which is open for discussion of Wales-related topics.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 06:57, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
        • OK, I put a note there. --Doric Loon (talk) 14:02, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
  • The Ordnance Survey form is "St David's / Tyddewi" which corroborates Bartholomew. It would be useful to look at usage by government departments for Wales to see whether they follow the local preference for St Davids.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 08:11, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
  • I don't want to dominate this, but since anyone coming new to this will probably begin reading at the banner, maybe I should just recap that the topic was discussed in two different sections further up the page. The main reasons given for the move are: 1. for the town name the spelling St Davids seems to be preferred locally, and is used consistently on the website of the council and almost consistently on the site of the local newspaper. (But they use St David's for anything else linked to the saint, like St David's day or St David's Cathedral.) 2. the spelling St Davids seems to be more widely used in the internet. 3. St Davids is consistent with St Andrews, St Neots, and other British place names based on saints' names. The main reasons given against are: 1. that it originally really is a possessive, so the apostrophe seems grammatically correct, and 2. that the spelling St David's is found on some major maps and in some government documents. --Doric Loon (talk) 14:02, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. (Sorry, chum, but) New Hart's Rules (2005) at p. 66 confirms there's no definitive rule here but illustrates the logic of, e.g., Lord's Cricket Ground and Offa's Dyke as against the equal acceptability of St Andrews, etc. I personally would never accept the Ordnance Survey as an authority, having found quite a few annoying variations and mispellings on its maps of Wales. But (as a publishing professional of some 50 years' standing) I always accept the authority of (what is now called) the Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors. It says at p. 334

  St David's small city in SW Wales (apostrophe); Welsh name Tyddewi

  This is the weightiest possible confirmation of the Bartholomew Gazetteer of Britain, as cited above. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 17:59, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support - If "St. Davids" is the more common spelling, then Wikipedia's guidelines about common names makes that the appropriate article title; prominent counterexamples do not veto the most common usage. Neelix (talk) 14:32, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

History and attractions has weird bug

"The area was originally known in the Welsh language as Mynyw and in Latin as Menevia, and was later renamed in honour of David." in the code shows up on the page as "The area was originally known in the Welsh language as Jay Baker CountryLatin next hype!, and was later renamed in honour of David."

I have no idea why this is, or how to fix it. Can someone smarter than me please set it right (and maybe explain to me what's going on there...)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.220.75.50 (talk) 06:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

St Pat

The Annales Cambriae has St. Pat also kicking around the area. Any more to the story of what he was (supposedly) doing there? — LlywelynII 22:55, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

As I was utterly ignorant of the Patrick legend before editing the history section, I have vaguely attributed it to "medieval Welsh literature". If anyone has a good link or can post the actual text from AC (or any medieval source) here, I'll update my text accordingly.

Diolch Cymrogogoch (talk) 11:28, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Community

There's a discussion about what to do with the community at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales#Missing communities with regard to the St David's (Pembrokeshire electoral ward) article. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:17, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Is there? The discussion was about the communities in Wales that didn't have their own article yet. If you want to formally discuss the electoral ward, you need to make it clear. Sionk (talk) 10:53, 20 June 2020 (UTC)