Talk:Flintshire

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Untitled

Is it not possible to mention that it borders the Wirral? I know we are (unfortunately) classed as part of Merseyside (and who in their right mind wants to be lumped in with Scousers), —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.27.251 (talk) 19:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Most importantly" Airbus? (Industry section). Says who? (Airbus, presumably). We either need an explanation of why this is the most important industry in Flintshire, or some different words. InelegantSolution (talk) 11:22, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I went for "and". InelegantSolution (talk) 11:53, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Origins of name?

I came to this article hoping to find at least one sentence explaining why it's called "Flintshire". I presume that it's because in early times there were abundant deposits of flint in the area. (I just created a new Category:Flint (rock).) I was hoping for confirmation, but alas, not a word on the subject. :-( Perhaps a knowledgable editor could add a sentence or two about the origins of the name? (Please be kind enough to Ping me when you reply. Thanks.) Regards, Anomalous+0 (talk) 09:44, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It was not named Flintshire until well after Flint,_Flintshire as Flint Castle was the Stronghold of the Welsh Border (chosen because of a long used passage across the dee at low tide which could access wales from the Wirral) and the county was named after that. However the Castle was named after the flint outcrop it was built on along the River Dee. Prior to the 12th century it was actually part of England forming part of the Cheshire hundred all the way up to the Denbighshire border, then a short period of Welsh ownership at which point the castle was built on Flint. Even now locals do not say "I'm from Flint" they say "I'm off Flint" which is supposed to be an old term kept within the town. iblamedan (talk) 10:14, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

New collage

Per your recommendation, for now, in your edit summary, although I can use WP:BRD, @DragonofBatley, not really sure of the new collage. After the discussion at WP:UKGEO for English counties, which deemed less images as better, I had become used to only using one image for Welsh counties to avoid the hassle of balancing good representation and quality, there can be so many images. And sorry to say, the images you chose are quite dark compared to the one it replaced, although the Talacre and Northop ones are quite good.

I'd suggest some general discussion on how county collages in Wales should be, like what were in England, but would consider all options as many images for Welsh counties are quite new. At minimum can the old image be re-added, as a large part of the county is hilly? And I personally try to avoid using similar images to ones on page previews other articles tbh, to avoid repetition and allow more variety to readers, although not all the time. Dank Jae 22:48, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for tagging me and allowing a discussion @DankJae, I did have a good look for some lighter images but some of the images are darker because they are newer or older. I couldn't find a decent deeside conurbation image but feel one image doesn't really represent the whole county. Pinpointing some more places allows a bit more variety in representation. I felt quite for once inspired by the work carried out by @Chocolateediter and @A D Hope with their work on other counties like Lancs, Durham, etc... I feel the welsh articles have some quality to them and the many castles, halls, churches, views, sculptures etc are well known to many readers and people who live and visit wales. I am happy to gather other editors thoughts. I am gonna leave the other welsh counties alone for now as I only saw this after doing my edits for Denbighshire and Gwynedd. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:09, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I fully see your edits as good faith, but after seeing constant image wars elsewhere and not wanting to clash over these as well as being a local, I'd prefer a discussion. Fully understand opposition to one-images, my only reasoning for them is to avoid these clashes on what best represents a county, and picking the lazy option of one.

But ofc, open to adding more as long as it is discussed. Sorry if it is pedantic, but hits too close to home (literally).

Like we don't necessarily need to pick images based on age, unless it is clear it is outdated (building changes, cars etc) or lesser quality. In terms of Deeside, I believe I struggled a few months ago to find an image for its article (that isn't just one of its components). But having a similar image to the article itself feels repetitive, the Flintshire Bridge represents it fine. But always open to new ideas.

Finally, I would like probably the brightest/best image (ex. rectangles) as the first one (for banners and page preview), as IMO seems most enticing to readers. Summarising Flintshire as an urban conurbation seems off to me as someone who goes to its market towns, wells, hills and Chestesque retail parks more than Queensferry, Shotton and the Quay.

Also as you're in the area @DragonofBatley, there is a discussion at Talk:Merseyside if you want to look at the proposals there.

Dank Jae 23:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would strongly prefer to leave the Welsh counties with single-image infoboxes for now. They're stable, the images are generally good after the work myself and DankJae did a couple of months ago, and some English ceremonial counties still need work.

Perhaps I'm just getting fatigued, but it would be nice to get England sorted and have a break before opening a proper discussion about Welsh principal area lead images. Also, given the English images were a bit of a chaotic free-for-all at times we (and I definitely include myself in this) should learn from that and approach Wales from a consensus-first rather than bold-first perspective.

This could seem hypocritical given I've added or changed Welsh principal area images myself (mostly adding single images or swaping one for another), and I accept that. You can only learn from your mistakes, though! A.D.Hope (talk) 10:55, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note — when I say 'consensus-first' I mean discussing any changes at Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography or Wikipedia:WikiProject Wales and setting a general format so that multiple editors aren't working at cross purposes to different criteria. The actual choice of image(s), if it's decided a change is needed, would likely still be subject to local consensus on the article talk pages. A.D.Hope (talk) 11:01, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Three photos? Ditch aerial shot. Keep Flint Castle (doubles up as representing the coast. Have one photo of either Queensferry Bridge or Flintshire Bridge (perhaps not the one with the pylons) and one of rolling countryside/hills. Rupples (talk) 21:22, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've reduced the photos to five, which is quite fair considering Flintshire has a lot of notable landmarks and places of interest. Feel free to suggest any photo changes that could be made DragonofBatley (talk) 22:32, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes @DragonofBatley - that's an improvement. I've lightened the Holywell Church photo and reuploaded. Rupples (talk) 23:30, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for doing that looks much better. DragonofBatley (talk) 10:11, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And I have reduced the images to three as per WP:UKGEO since Wales is most definitely in the UK. Esemgee (talk) 16:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Made minor changes: please see edit summary for reasoning. Rupples (talk) 17:20, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Esemgee. Agree the three image format works better here; the five images rather duplicated a church and castle. @DragonofBatley, what do you think? Rupples (talk) 17:32, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Esemgee, @Rupples, currently the guidelines at WP:UKCOUNTIES were discussed for English ceremonial counties. There are discussions at UKGEO to expand them to other English counties too.

I am considering opening a section at WP:WALES whether Welsh counties should follow it too or have its own guideline/standard. While Wales is part of the UK it doesn’t make sense for a guideline with only England in mind to automatically apply to Wales unless local editors agree too. Prior to these recent multi-image montages added a few days ago, many Wales counties only had one image. The recent multiple images were a bold edit of one user, which I opened this section to discuss following their bold addition.

Would prefer the one image is restored while a discussion is started on whether to follow the same England ceremonial guideline or set a new one specifically for Wales. I would note the guideline sets a max of four, but a local consensus can be decided for them to only have one or three. Dank Jae 19:38, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind so long as it's not an over-long collage. Esemgee (talk) 19:40, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Restored the original one image per WP:BRD, fully open to discussing more images. Dank Jae 20:17, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@DankJae - I'm not following what you mean by "local" consensus or "local" editors. Would you please elaborate? Probably misunderstanding you but I'm getting a slight nationalist vibe. If I'm not Welsh, a resident of Wales or a member of WP:WALES am I precluded from the discussion? Rupples (talk) 21:03, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rupples, The discussion at UKGEO was heavily related to England and English ceremonial counties, nothing mentioned on Wales, Scotland and NI, so without that being discussed there it is kinda misjudging consensus for it to automatically apply to those areas. Any editor is invited to a potential WP:WALES discussion, membership is no requirement, I'll notify UKGEO of the discussion too, but it seems to make more sense for editors more involved in such articles to also have their say. If the UKGEO did specifically state it should apply to all UK counties then this situation may be different, but it did not. So here we are.

No nationalistic intentions here, I actually dislike any nationalism in many cases, but it feels uncomfortable for a guideline which opened on English ceremonial counties being suddenly applied to all counties when the discussion did not clearly state it should be? while continuing to mention English ceremonial counties throughout. Dank Jae 21:20, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see. That the discussion only applied to English counties didn't register with me as it was on the UKGEO project and I thought the examples just happened to be English counties where the newish collages had been placed. Thought the new guideline applied to all UK counties. Thanks for explaining. Rupples (talk) 22:01, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@A.D.Hope, @DragonofBatley, @Esemgee, @Rupples, started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales#New county images guideline. Dank Jae 22:36, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Remove or not?

In December 2022, the Climate change Committee met and Buckley Bistre West councillor Carolyn Preece recommended weekly vegan school meals in the local schools to combat climate change.

The above was added under the Education heading in December 2022 sourced from a local newspaper. It was removed by an IP today and the removal reverted by an editor utilising a bot which construed the removal as vandalism. The text selects a comment from one councillor, from among other suggestions made in the newspaper piece. Isn't this undue weight? Also, is it encyclopedic? It seems merely to import a newspaper headline. Thoughts? Rupples (talk) 18:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rupples, agree seems WP:UNDUE, plus the suggestion is only one day a week, so probably the "not accurate" bit a IP referenced. Plus seems not to have been enacted yet, nor really noteworthy? Dank Jae 18:32, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed infobox collage

Following the discussion which led to a dispute over collages, I restart the discussion proposing the following.

DankJae's proposal

Order: Use existing image first, to ensure continuity over Page Preview. The current image seems fine to remain, prefer a hilly wider image than others used such as Flint Castle. Plus when looking over the Dee estuary its hills are quite prominent with large sections being designated. As well as being an image from the county's south.
General: Tried to represent Deeside (as the main population), other than using Flintshire Bridge or the same image as its article, but open to using those or another image. Added a different image of St Winefride's Well as a notable well and shrine in Wales, previous images of the same structure seemed a bit darker. Had to omit, Mold and Flint due to constraints of three only and argued that while historically important, are only notable for being the centre of administration. Also had to omit Talacre, due to the limit. While Flint Castle is only one of the county's castles, and disliked the images avaliable of it, however happy to accommodate.

Be free to suggest better quality images of the same landmarks, and would happly apply. Be free to also suggest using different criteria and landmarks and would happily discuss what is best to represent the county.

If no opposition is raised, I would boldly insert it on 10 December. Opted for a discussion, considering previous attempts led to a dispute. Pinging those I feel are connected to the discussion specifically on Flintshire, however you do not need to respond. Dank Jae 21:48, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

added, no opposition raised Dank Jae 19:32, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! Again, I did mean to chip in but life got in the way. You've made a good selection of subjects, although if better (by whatever metric) versions of the bottom two images crop up on Commons in the future we could swap out the current ones. I did have a quick look for a less exposed image of St Winefride's Well, but nothing stood out. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:26, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the latter two needing better versions. The best image of the well (area in general) are much more landscape, like the main image for Holywell, Flintshire. Ofc, representing Deeside, that isn't chosing only one of the villages or a bridge, led to the existing image in absence of better versions. Dank Jae 20:29, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]