Talk:History of Szczecin

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This page was moved from Szczecin article. Please inspect that page history for previous contributors. Przepla 12:03, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The name problem

This is another reincarnation of Szczecin name dispute. Since this was discussed at Talk:Szczecin (see archive), and community consensus was to keep names consistent with names used in appropriate time, I reverted this article. User:PolishPoliticians does not responded to me (In fact his talk page consist purely of my comments). Therefore I must conclude, that reasoning with PolishPoliticians is pointless, and only possible solution of maintaining community consensus is this revert war. I am still open, to discussing things. Przepla 20:45, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Szczecin is Szczecin

It is a very bad idea to name one city with 2/3/4 or more names for various historical period. We have to decide if:

the English name of the city is Szczecin
the English name of the city is Stettin
the English name of the city is Stetin
the English name of the city is ... other

Once this problem is fixed, we should apply this name to all historical and modern references.

In my opinion the English city name is Szczecin. This is the offcial city name used by the municipal authorities in the English publications. Szczecin is the city name used in English language communication by the Szczecin-Swinoujscie international seaport. Szczecin is the offcial city name used in English language communication by the Szczecin international airport. Szczecin is the city name used in hundreds on English language publications. For example plase refet to the Offcial Szczecin site: http://www.szczecin.pl/inwestor/uk/1_uk/uk_1_1.htm

It is a very bad idea to force one name on a city that has long had 2/3/4 or more names for various historical period.

Szczecin is certainly the city's dominant English name for present reference, yet the historical city of Stettin is still known by its own name.

"From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic an "iron curtain" has descended across the continent. Behind that line lie all the capitals of the ancient states of Central and Eastern Europe. Warsaw, Berlin, Prague, Vienna, Budapest, Belgrade, Bucharest and Sofia; all these famous cities and the populations around them lie in what I must call the Soviet sphere, and all are subject, in one form or another, not only to Soviet influence but to a very high and in some cases increasing measure of control from Moscow." -- Winston Churchill's "Sinews of Peace" address, 5 March 1946.

Indeed, the broken post-war city has never regained the significance it bore before 1945. In the mind of much of the English-speaking world the modern city is almost disconnected from its historical self--much like Kaliningrad is. Königsberg is dead. It died in 1945. Its people were expelled and its buildings destroyed, and a grotesque Stalinist atro-city erected like a tombstone over its ruins. The case of Stettin is less extreme, but the effect is just as pronounced. For proposes of (pre-1945) historical reference Stettin remains in use and is likely to do so. Attempting to cleanse the historical record of the name Stettin will serve only to confuse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.97.218.2 (talk) 20:21, 12 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A little bit about the history of the City

The past of the City of Szczecin is both multinational and multicultural one. The history of the Town began at the turn of 7th and 8th centuries when there was already a Slavonic settlement on today's castle hill and, a fortified city as well. At the end of the 10th century, Szczecin became a feudal estate of the Polish Prince, Mieszko I and it was already in 1005, when Pomeranians gained its full independence. It was during the times of Bolestaw Krzywousty, when Szczecin experienced the sphere of Polish influence again. During that time it was the bishop, Otto from Bamberg, who carried on chrystianization mission in Pomerania (years 1124/1125 and 1128). This second period of Polish feudal sovereignty over the Western Pomerania and Szczecin lasted 60 years (1121-1181).

During 1184-1227, Szczecin - together with Pomerania - was under Danish sovereignty. It was about 12th century when first German people arrived to Szczecin. They have settled down nearby today's Old Town's Hall. In 1187, a rich merchant, Beringer from Bamberg funded the St Jacob's Church. Since that date, a spontaneous affluence of German people to the town and the growth of their importance, is noted. The rapidly expanding German community, have absorbed old Slavonic town already in 1237.

The municipal rights, Szczecin has received them in 1243 and the city of Szczecin became a permanent duke's residence. Since that moment, the town started to play an important political part in Pomerania. It was in 1278, when Szczecin became a member of Hanza. There was a great part of the Gryphites' dynasty in the history of Pomerania. The dynasty has built an autonomous Pomeranian state and its representatives governed in Pomerania over 500 years feud of the German Reich, at the same time. The politics of Pomeranian sovereigns was limited substantially towards maintaining of autonomy - as far-reaching and longstanding as possible.

(1121-1637). The Duchy of Pomerania was a buffer state between Poland, Brandenburg and the Teutonic Order and it wasDuring the 17th century, the decadency of prosperity of the town began and, soon afterwards, economical breakdown of the whole duchy deepened as a consequence of the Thirty Years' War (1618-1648). Prince Bugustaw XIV, the last one of the Gryphites dynasty died without issue in 1637. In accordance with the Peace of Westphalia, concluded in Osnabriick (1648), hitherto independent Pomeranian Duchy was divided between Sweden and Brandenburg. Szczecin, with considerable part of Pomerania passed over to Swedish hands. During 90 years of Swedish rule, a visible downfall of the town, of the port and trade appeared.

After the great North War, concluded with Stockholm's Treaty in the year 1720, Szczecin was included to Prussia and obtained the status of capital of the Pomerania Province. The Prussian authorities made Szczecin a strong military centre, of which evidence were defence fortifications, covering much bigger surface then the area of the town itself. In the course of Napoleonic wars, the town was very important French fortress during a several years (1806-1813). The stay of the Frenchmen caused substantial fall in population and brought about economical collapse of the town.

Once the town returned to Prussia, the shipbuilding industry revived and the town became, step by step, an important centre of that industry in the state of Prussia. The Prussian authorities expanded military function of the Szczecin fortress which, for ever afterwards, had unfavourable repercussions on town planning development. Permanent affluence of rural people, as well as industrial and trade development, caused that spatial development possibilities of Szczecin within fortification limits, promptly exhausted. Many years endeavours of the town authorities towards removing of the fortifications were crowned with success in 1873 when destruction of forts and town's walls began. Since that moment, very dynamic development of the town is noted. The spatial development of Szczecin was a classical pattern of geometrical town planning at that time and the basis for that were radial-like squares with triangle building plots on which Neoclassical and Secession tenement-houses, as well as functional public utilities buildings were constructed. The next important stage in spatial development of the town began at the turn of 19th and 20th centuries when merging of suburban housing estates, urbanized already and independent hitherto, and small towns took place. The said development was connected with significant development of the municipal infrastructure.

On 26th April 1945, Szczecin was conquered by the 65th Russian army and the Polish administration took over the town on 5th July 1945. During the Potsdam Conference, the Great Threesome decided to award Szczecin to Poland. During the Second World War, 60-70% of the buildings, 70-80% of the harbour with its dependencies and 90% of industrial objects were destroyed. Mostly suffered the terrain over the Odra River and the buildings in the centre of the town including ancient Old Town. The extent of war damages was such, that Szczecin was counted among 20 most ruined towns of Germany of that time.

Well if that's a "multinational and multicultural" history, then so is that of London and Moscow and Paris. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.97.218.2 (talk) 20:27, 12 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Szczecin and the border

In German Wikipedia it is written, that it was planned that Szczecin will stay at Germany and the Border will be east of the town. But Stalin and the polish had occupied the city abd against the agreement it was given to the Polish. My question is, is that right and maybe if it's right why the have decided that way? maybe that could also be in the Article? --134.147.119.129 (talk) 02:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup

Very well. I won't oppose for a time being changes with the names. Let there be Szczecin all over. I agree, that Szczecin is current official English name of the city. Nobody really oppose that. The article is at Szczecin and this is History of Szczecin article I am just protecting community consensus. Let's assume, that we are currently reconsidering it. Since you made some substantial changes, I won't revert. I am just cleaning the mess in the article with it's current form. Specifically:

Odra River is a redirect to Oder River. So it should be Oder River, or Odra River. One should not link to a redirect. You could check others such instances (like PZPR).
Only terms appearing for the first time within the article should be linked. Currently: Lusatian Culture, World War II and many others, Sweden, Greater Poland, Pomerania are linked twice or more.
Short history at the beginning is not necessary. It's duplicating data from Szczecin, there is no need for introduction, as only possible way to enter this article is via Szczecin where there already is summary.
In English there is no need to use city, as in Szczecin city. There is New York City, because there is New York State.
Side note: From now on, I assume that User:PolishPoliticians, User:SzczecinCity, User:Szczecin, User:Gdansk and any similar names with similiar behaviour, and anons from Koszalin, who somehow appear to share their view with users names above is the same person. Przepla 11:57, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Why do we even need this article, aside from our friend's desire to use the name "Szczecin"? Can't we just redirect to Szczecin, and incorporate any additional information that is here into that article's already extensive history section? john k 13:49, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This article contains information taken from main Szczecin article. On Szczecin currently there is only short summary. Moving history here might be a good move for two reasons: last time I checked main article exceeded 43 kB, and by separating name debate into different (less visible) article. Przepla 19:04, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Okay, that's fine with me. In that case, we should return to the consensus version you wrote a bit back, where the names Stetin, Stettin, and Szczecin are used when appropriate. Hopefully I'll get called a Nazi again soon. john k 19:46, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Update

Updated history with references.--Molobo (talk) 00:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your references were unreliable, since published during the Communist regime in Poland. Rm. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:50, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Skapperod-books published in Socialist Poland are perfectly reliable unless pointed out case by case. In fact you will find that articles on Wiki are often based on sources from Socialists countries or even on books from Soviet Union.--Molobo (talk) 08:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Communist sources can be reliable regarding a lot of issues. But not in regard of ethnic/territorial claims subject to heavy Communist propaganda.

There are no communist books used.--Molobo (talk) 11:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You know pretty well that I used the term "Communist sources" in the sense I outlined a sentence earlier, i.e. "published during the Communist regime in Poland". If such a source is used to back a post-war Communist claim to an area by an alleged "possession" of the area in the Middle Ages, and modern sources do not support that, the source stating it is obviously not reliable. Skäpperöd (talk) 12:36, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, that is just your opinion.--Molobo (talk) 12:42, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

pre-war Polish minority

File:Bevölkerungsverteilung Ostmitteleuropa um 1918.jpg

Not a single contemporary map lists a Polish minority in this area, not even close to it. Some merchants or labourers don't make a national minority. HerkusMonte (talk) 09:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't look at those maps. [1] shows Polish minority in Szczecin. As to the rest of the sentence, please read on Original Research--Molobo (talk) 21:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Distributed

Distributed information per history period it concerns. Removed tag as no explanation was provided that would justify it.--Molobo (talk) 19:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Restoring unsourced controversial text

Ummm, this edit [2] restores unsourced controversial material, as well as just some plain old bad grammar (for example Barnim of Pomerania granted a local government charter to a local community in 1237. Likewise the stuff about expulsions is already mentioned in that section - there's no need to put that in twice (or thrice).Volunteer Marek 06:47, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The "stuff" is barely mentioned in a population list. The event that really changed everything is hardly "redundant" [3]. If you think a longstanding claim is controversial (rather unsourced, I think), please use "citation needed" tags. HerkusMonte (talk) 06:59, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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northern part of HRR was Germany

The explicit citation: "Besonders seit dem 12. Jahrhundert kann jedoch kein Zweifel mehr daran bestehen, dass die Zeitgenossen dieses karolonigsch-antike und christlich-kirchliche Reich als Lebensform, Eigentum und Stolz des heanwachsenden und weiterhin heranwachsenden deutschen Volkes verstanden haben. [...] Daher kann die moderne Wissenschaft spätestens seit dem 12. Jahrhundert unbesorgt von Deutschland sprechen [...]"

Also note:

Citation from a book on Silesia, but same for Pomerania
the northern part of he HRR excluding Italy *was* the Kingdom of Germany.
Polish sources stress the multi-ethnic nature, which is true, but does not mean that
Polish sources likewise use "Poland" to the early state of Mieszko round 1000 AD, which is also debatable as German historians point out

--Tino Cannst (talk) 09:58, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]