Talk:Xishuangbanna Dai Autonomous Prefecture

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Name and transliteration

Which transliteration is "Sipsongpanna"? olivier 13:59, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Sipsawngpanna (or Sipsongpanna) is the transliteration of the Tai name (used in Thailand and Laos) for the region. As a Tai region, it probably bares mention, but the current article does not explain this. The meaning is:

Sip (ten) sawng (two) = 12

pan = 1000

na = rice field

... putting it together, 12,000 rice fields.

- prat

I have reformatted the article and added this explanation. - prat

"sipsɔngpanna" is the transcription of the name of the prefecture in Dai ([Tai Lü language|Tai Lü]) in the International Phonetic Alphabet. The name "sipsɔngpanna" is in fact a result of linguistic borrowing between Chinese and Tai: sip corresponds to Chinese 十, sɔng to 雙. Are you sure that panna isn't just one word? I've read that panna means "village". The word pan could also correspond to Thai พัน ("thousand"), Chinese 萬 ("ten thousand"), or to Thai บ้าน ("house"). The Thai word ปัน means "to distribute" or "to divide", นา means "field". Chinese sources say that an older Dai name for Xishuangbanna is Měngbālānàxī 勐巴拉娜西 (in Chinese transcription), but I couldn't find out what that would be in Dai originally. Babelfisch 03:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Měngbālānàxī means beautiful miraculous place in Dai language. (http://www.qxnrb.com/epaper/qxnrb/html/2009-02/24/content_40363.htm) --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 05:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I’m going to remove the sentence below (presumably added by Babelfisch) as there is no citation and it sounds a lot like a false etymology. It would be perfectly natural for Chinese people to seek an explanation of the name in Chinese, but since the Dai explanation makes sense why is a Chinese origin necessary? If there is a source for this then put it back in, but it should be clearly described as a theory since etymology are often very difficult to prove.

Sipsong derives from Chinese 十 (ten) and 雙 (pair).

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 03:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps someone with the capability should add the names for the region in Thai and Lao script (unsure if they differ).

- prat

First of all, the name should be added in Dai script - and yes, the Thai and Lao languages have two different scripts. Babelfisch 03:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Che-li in Chinese"?

Pratyeka, where did you find that and how is it written in Chinese characters? Babelfisch 03:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure, it would have probably been in one of the old western travel accounts. Next time I see it I'll add a reference. prat (talk) 19:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. However, feel free to pursue a broader discussion of how to transcribe the language, preferably at a central location rather than a single talk page. Dekimasuよ! 11:05, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Xishuangbanna Dai Autonomous Prefecture → Sípsɔ́ngpǎnnǎː Dai Autonomous Prefecture —(According to the ethnicity policies of the People's Republic of China, use Tai Lü name. ) --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 14:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose non-English lettering. Sípsɔ́ngpǎnnǎ ? Tell me where ɔ́ occurs in the English alphabet. 76.66.196.229 (talk) 05:13, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it should be Sípsongpǎnnǎ. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 14:20, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I'm not familiar with either an "ethnicity policy" that requires this in China nor anything that requires Wikipedia to follow it. — AjaxSmack 01:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The English Wikipedia policy is to use the common English name for places and things.--Danaman5 (talk) 04:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply. However, if we use Xishuangbanna, it's a name of twice transcription. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 14:24, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And if we use Sipsongpanna, readers do not know it's Thai language or Tai Lue language. So use Sípsongpǎnnǎ. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 14:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If fact, we need an official transcription system for Tai Lue language. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 14:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sex Tourism Section

This was completely unfounded and has been removed. There was one reference, actually a reference re-used from elsewhere in the article. The implication of giving this an entire section within the article is that sex tourism is very big in the area, and also that this is a major part of the culture of the region. Both suggestions are simply untrue. In reality, 'sex tourism' implies 'tourism for the purpose of sex' and this is largely not a valid concept within the Chinese domestic travel market: in almost every sizable Chinese hotel there are prostitutes operating, everywhere in the country. See Prostitution in the People's Republic of China. prat (talk) 19:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Citation needed

...influx of Pan-Taiist propaganda from Japan's ally, fascist Thailand

This needs a citation to support it, as well as re-wording to eliminate the red link unless there's a citation for such an influx. Even then the other link should be changed to Plaek Phibunsongkhram's alliance with Japan, which links to a nice propaganda poster, but not one related to our subject. His regime would have met the definition by Umberto Eco in the paper referenced at the end the article on Fascism, but again that doesn't relate directly to either Phibun's article; or to ours, where "fascist" seems to be used merely as a pejorative. This paper indicates that there was more confusion among the Thai than anything like a plan to unite all Tai people under one rule: Maleenont, Nobchulee (Dawn) (2010). "No God-Damned Thailander Can Be Trusted to Do a Job Without Getting Political Minded: The Free Thai Movement and the Politics of Independence During World War II". Voces Novae: Chapman University Historical Review. Vol 2 (No.1). Chapman University. Retrieved September 29, 2013. In the second half of 1943, Captain Miles of the United States Navy Intelligence was becoming more and more entangled in Thai politics. He saw that the establishment of a Thai exile government in Chungking [the provisional capital of the Republic of China] equaled a Free Thai and OSS success under his supervision, as well as a strong cooperative relationship between the Chinese and the Americans as the product of his maneuvering. {{cite journal}}: |issue= has extra text (help); |volume= has extra text (help)

Maybe it should be left out? We might include instead a reference to this paper that disputes the common description of a "Mass Migration" to Thai lands: Du Yuting; Chen Lufan (1989). "Did Kublai Khan's Conquest of the Dali Kingdom Give Rise to the Mass Migration of the Thai People to the South?" (free PDF). Journal of the Siam Society. JSS Vol. 77.1c (digital). Siam Heritage Trust. Retrieved March 17, 2013. —Pawyilee (talk) 20:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The tone of much of the material from Hsieh Shih-Chung’s book seems inappropriate for Wikipedia. How does a sentence like “The Communists liberated the prefecture from Guomindang loyalists in 1952” promote a neutral point of view? If it was a direct quote it would be OK, though needing some context, but as a supposed paraphrase appearing as primary Wikipedia text, it’s just awful! I’ll try to fix some of this. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 03:20, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It would be good to know what ‘Burmese-based monastic education’ means exactly. Is that education through the medium of the Burmese language? The current link is to Burma. Maybe this made more sense before the earlier history of the region was removed from the article.

After some prevarication, I removed the word fascist and also removed the citation required template. The relevant reference is probably the one in the following sentence. Although it seems accepted that Plaek Phibunsongkhram was influenced by European fascism, a text search at Google Books did not find the word fascist in Hsieh’s book. It was added in this big edit by Shrigley. I think the link to that period of Thailand’s history is probably better than linking to Phibun.

Red-links aren’t always bad. Pan-Taiism probably does deserve an article, even if it’s a minor phenomenon compared to Pan-Slavism or Pan-Turkism.

I removed the reference to Western missionaries’ ulterior motives because this implied the Communists had no ulterior motives. It seems reasonable that both groups had both altruistic motives and wanted to make the people good Christians/Communists. I also removed excessive details like the Chinese name of a particular mission.

I don’t quite follow how the creation of Jingdong Yi Autonomous County on the other side of Pu'er Prefecture from Xishuangbanna Prefecture, affected its territory, but I’ll leave that to someone else to figure out.

Peacefully negotiated land reform (和平协商土改, hépíng xiéshāng tǔgǎi) - I have changed this to simply Land reform. The typically propagandistic Chinese title seems a little unbalanced for Wikipedia. For all I know, it was peacefully negotiated, but if it wasn’t I’m sure the name would have been the same.

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 05:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I'm not sure what I was thinking at the time that I chose "liberated" among the many synonyms of similar semantic range for regime change. I am usually good about suppressing that impulse :-). Don't worry about Hsieh's scholarship being tainted by his potentially being a pinko Han chauvinist Commie fascist. Like many (especially Western-trained) anthropologists, it's actually biased in the opposite direction of "going native" and boo-hooing about the loss of precious native knowledge.

Imperial Japan's promethianism against China was extremely broad, and it left a deep legacy in all those areas of China where foreigners are interested in ascribing a non-Chinese identity and history to the resident minorities. Whatever the motivation of the people who manifest this interest, I only wish that it involved more curiosity, more research, and more addition of information, and less suppression of the same. Anyway, you've inspired me to write an article on Pan-Taiism. Thanks! Shrigley (talk) 06:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To add

To add: what it borders. 204.210.190.132 (talk) 23:56, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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