Talk:Shan people

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Fictional Shan aliens

The old page about an alien race is viewable at Shan (aliens). - Dave (talk) 03:47, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

Chinese meaning of Shan

The part about the Chinese language meaning is untrue. "Shan" does not mean mountain simply in Hong Kong, it is used to refer to mountains anywhere and is often in the names of towns. It is not a transliteration of cantonese. - Lei Wen Xiu

Shan refers to many things

This page should be dedicated as a general linkage page, since there are so many distinct meanings for Shan, such as it is also an important surname for an ethnic Chniese group, it could also refer to names of region, province, city or river. Even though I respect Shan as an ethnic group, it is not appropriate to occupy this important page, rather one linked line should be enough for Shan ethnic group under this page, and the full text of introduction of Shan ethnic group should be discussed in that page titled Shan Ethnic Group or something like that. - Mikeqil commented on 6-21-2006

I agree with this comment, it's just like call everyone living in the Kayin or Karen state 'Karen' there are so many different tribes, cultures and languages, while there are many common factors, there are very different ones too.

Shan can be a denomination of people from the Shan state, or from the old Shan kingdoms, or from a Shan tribe or people groups. Tai Yai is not equal to Shan people, not in language, culture or traditions. I will look for Asian sources. Dhammadharo (talk) 14:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

who?

I thought shan was me bro —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.98 (talk • contribs) 18:04, 14 December 2005.

It seems really unclear what you are saying, bro. "I thought Shan was me bro" could mean that you think that you are a Shan, or perhaps that Shan are your brothers. JaafarAbuTarab 15:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Shan and Tai

Shan is a generic term for Tai ethnicity. Throughout all periods of history the Tai region has been fragmented into many small states. The modern political party that takes up much of this page should be spun off to a separate page and reduced to a small summary on this page. The page should cover 2000 years of Shans. I feel uncomfortable doing this because I am not Shan. I really am trying to be objective here without any bias either way to Burmese or Shans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JonFernquest (talk • contribs) 06:53, 13 July 2006.

Is "Shan" a generic term for Tai ethnicity? No, it is not. The people of Thailand are of Tai ethnicity, but they are not Shan. If this page should cover 2000 years of Shans, then type away bro. Trying to be objective, or what? JaafarAbuTarab 15:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe 'Shan' is a generic term for Tai ethnicity inside Burma (Myanmar). The most recent etymological studies I've read note that the word 'Shan' is largely used by Burmese and is derived from a mispronuniation of 'Siam' or 'Syam'. The 'Shan' people generally refer to themselves as Tai "free men/people". I think the section on etymology should employ the research found in Sao Saimong Mangrai's work. I'd be happy to do it as soon as I can, though there are more experienced scholars for the task. On the history of the 'Shan': I think the page should reflect the most we can decipher of there c.2000 year history and that the nationalist movement should have a specific page. Just some thoughts. Best, richardtgreer (talk) 18:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC) A note to future editors (which may include myself), the four major groups of the Tai are dubious. The Tai-Yuan are not in the schematic, neither are the Tai of western Laos. Anyway, the four-fold scheme should be tossed. There seems to be no real reason why the Tai should be grouped into sub categories other than Khun, Lu or Yuan, for example. richardtgreer (talk) 16:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A passage of interest I found in Sao Saimong Mangrai's The Shan States and the British Annexation , published by the Southeast Asian Studies program at Cornell in 1965,: "A word about the terms Shan and Tai. We know that the word Shan came from the same root as Siam, Syam, Sajam, Siem, Sien and Hsien, etc., but so far no satisfactory explanation has been offered how it came about or what it means. As stated earlier, the word Syam was mentioned in the Cham inscriptions of the eleventh century. This seems to have been the first mention of the word. In the twelfth century, it again occured on the bas-reliefs of Angkor Wat. Professor [Gordon H.] Luce further tells us that the word occurs over twenty times in the Pagan inscriptions, the earliest in Burmese, and that it occurs usually in the lists of pagoda slaves, male and female. But the Thais never call themselves Syam, nor do the Tais in the Shan States call themselves Shan. Syam or Shan seems to be a term used by other people in calling certain members of the Tai race." (44)

Based on this and other information, I'm prepared to agree with J. Fernquest. In Burma, Shan does appear to be a generic term for Tai peoples, of which there are many. Beyond Burma, in Laos, Thailand, Yunnan province (China) and at Angkor Wat derivations of Syam, etc. are also generic terms for Tai peoples. Why is it that in Burma Shan has been used? My hypothesis is that Shan is the Burmese derivation of Syam, Siam, etc. and is used generically to refer to the Khoen, Yai, etc. richardtgreer (talk) 19:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with J. Fernquest too. 'Shan' is a generic term for Tai ethnicity inside Burma (Myanmar). Mon people in Lower Burma (Past or present) refers Tai people as Shan or Xian. Till now, both Tai people from Shan State, Burma and Thai people from Thailand are called by the Mon people as Shan/Xian/Syam. Peter Moe (talk) 07:57, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agriculture

I am not Shan but lived there since I was a month old till six. I would suggest the page could be of more help if the agricultural produces of the state is mentioned. Whcih might help the economy minorities to the world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.81.161.151 (talk • contribs) 00:42, 19 August 2006.

"I am not Shan." Well, you should go figure this whole problem out for yourself, and then let everyone else know, if they are still awake. If you want the "agricultural produces" to be mentioned, then type away bro! JaafarAbuTarab 15:37, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vietnam?

Do Shan live in Vietnam? They seem not to be one of the 54 officially recognized ethnic groups. Badagnani 00:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to the interwiki, they're recognized as Sán Chay in Vietnam. DHN 02:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've just done some research; San Chay is a language in the Central Tai language group, while Shan is in the northwest Tai group. They're not closely related, and I think the name "San" (pronounced "Shan") simply shows that both languages have a common root word used to describe the two peoples, as for example with the Dine people (in Arizona) and Dene Suline people (in Canada), who speak distantly related languages. Thus, I'm still not convinced that Shan live in Vietnam, but instead members of another Tai-speaking ethnic group whose name sounds similar (and has caused confusion with the Burmese Shan for this reason). Badagnani 02:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know for certain, but I would not be surprised if the terms Shan, San as in San Chay, Assam and Siam are all cognates.Kevin Borland, Esq. 06:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating. With a bit of research you could probably figure this out. You do know that in quoc ngu romanization of Vietnamese, "s" sounds like "sh"? Badagnani 06:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See Etymology of Assam. I can't find any discussion of the etymology of "Siam" in any article, although it seems important. Badagnani 06:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article says that "Shan" is a corruption of "Siam" by the Burmese. Not sure if that claim has any merit. Badagnani 06:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The only Tai language I happen to speak is Thai, but I'm going to see if I can find anything on the origins of the suspected Siam cognates. I've done some original research on Tai etymology and links to Austronesian words though. The most interesting thing I've discovered so far has to do with the origin of the Tai words for nose. In central Thai, your nose is ja-mook. A nostril is a na-mook. A booger is ki-mook. The Tamil word for nose is mook (Tamil is not Austronesian, but I believe the mook was borrowed sometime around when the Sri Lankan monks came to Thailand to spread Theravada.) However, the Thai word for the bridge of one's nose is dang. In Lao, dang is the generic word for nose. This is interesting because the proto-Tai-Kadai word for nose appears to be something along the lines of i-dang, whereas it is ngi-jung in Austronesian with some branches having forms very close to i-dang including i-rong (Tagalog) qi-dong, etc. The Thai word for bird nok also seems to match its Austronesian counterpart. I find this kind of stuff very interesting.Kevin Borland, Esq. 06:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think Khmer, though an unrelated language, has a similar word for "nose." Regarding the Indians who brought Hinduism, they may have been from South or Central India (never heard Sri Lanka), but I don't know if they were Dravidian speakers; most of the loanwords seem to come from Sanskrit-based languages like Pali or Prakrit. Another professor at my university is a Thai specialist and just returned from a visit to the Dong people in Guangxi; he didn't note any vocabulary similar to Thai although Dong is apparently a Tai language. Badagnani 06:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably you've seen this? Badagnani 06:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cambodia and Vietnam just removed without comment

Edit here. Badagnani (talk) 09:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do Shan live in those places? There are Tai peoples there, however, I am not sure what difference that makes? FYI, I didn't erase the two countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardtgreer (talk • contribs) 21:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

book

THE သင္ခေြင္႔၈ွ၈္႔ကမ္,ေမဳေတ႔ ပီးေတယြခေ္း၈ွ၈္႔ကူိ၀္း

Zomia

Editors should see Zomia (geography) and James C. Scott, author of The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia, Yale University Press, 2009 ISBN 0-300-15228-0. The premise is that orogeny sets the stage for political conflict in continental "shatter zones." See also Bunopas, Sangad (17–24 November 1992). "Geotectonics and Geologic Evolution of Thailand". National Conference on "Geologic Resources of Thailand: Potential for Future Development". Department of Mineral Resources, Bangkok. pp. 209–229. Thailand consists of Shan–Thai and Indochina Microcontinents or Terranes welded together by the subsequently deformed Nan Suture.... During the Middle Triassic Shan–Thai sutured nearly simultaneously to Indochina and to South China, the continent–continent collision being a part of the Indosinian Orogeny and Indochina tended to underthrust Shan–Thai. {{cite web}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); |archive-url= requires |url= (help); |format= requires |url= (help); Check date values in: |date= and |archivedate= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) --Pawyilee (talk) 03:23, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thai terminology

While trying to "decode" a book on Sri Suriyothai, I stumbled upon Thai: เงื้ยว in the phrase ชนชาติเงื้ยว as an alternate of Tai Yai. สมเด็จพระศรีสุริโยทัย. ประวัติบุคคลสำคัญของไทยพร้อมภาพประกอบ [Biography of important Thai with pictures] (in Thai). ภาพ [illustrator] มานิต หล่อพินิจ. กทม.: บริษัทอักษราพิพัฒน์. พ.ศ. 2536 [AD 1993]. p. 1. ISBN 974-08-3253-9. แต่ ชนชาติเงื้ยว หรือ ไทยใหย่ ซึ่งเคยมีอำนาจอยู่ในดินแดนมอญแสะพม่า {{cite book}}: |first= missing |last= (help); Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: others (link)

Found เงื้ยว in So Sethaputra, สอ เสถบุตร [in Thai] (2542 BE/AD 1999). New Model Thai-English Dictionary. Bangkok: ไทยวัฒนาพานิช : Thai Watthanā Phānit. p. 70. ISBN 974-08-3253-9. A Shan in the Shan States of Burma. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |year= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); More than one of |pages= and |page= specified (help); Text "สอ เสถบุตร" ignored (help)CS1 maint: year (link)

--Pawyilee (talk) 04:43, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assam

I have noticed in the info box which contain the list of Shan kingdom, in case of Assam or Ahom Kingdom, the only information given was that it was a Burmese vassal. I would like to inform that Burmese invasion occured at the final stage of the Ahom rule, which was very brief if you compare the 600 years rule of Ahom dynasty. Burmese invasion brought ultimate ruin and destruction of Assam and contemporary Ahom chronicles recalled those days as reign of terror by Burmese. I can provide names of many such books or chronicles. It should be noted that the Ahoms were excelled in the art of writing and maintaining historical records. I have already edited that section once and have given few references, yet it seem some Burmese guy must have deleted my edits and again posted the previous information to show that Assam was a Burmese vassal without even thinking to examine the references. Therefore i have edited that section again with references and will put some more references. I request my unknown Burmese friend kindly reconsider to examine the references or read this talk rather than driven away by over nationalistic view.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 08:52, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Shans at home. With two chapters on Shan history and literature (1910) (14577646008).jpg

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Genetics

Haplogroup CF and Haplogroup CT#Subclades suggest that the Shan people may have interesting ancestry and genetics, which should be added to this article. Daask (talk) 14:52, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]