Talk:List of Stanley Cup champions

Suggestion

THis article should contain a list of the teams who have won the cup and how many times each of them have won. 24.201.16.162 (talk) 14:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

There's already such a list at List of Stanley Cup Finals appearances. Jmj713 (talk) 16:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

March 16–18, 1907 Brandon Wheat Kings? Brandon Wheat Cities i think... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pnep (talk • contribs) 06:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Blackhawks

Why are the Chicago Blackhawks listed as the Black Hawks? Dincher (talk) 02:12, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind. Dincher (talk) 02:15, 17 April 2010 (UTC) For many years, the name was spelled "Black Hawks." This ambiguity was finally settled in the summer of 1986 when the club officially decided on the one-word version based on the spelling found in the original franchise documents.<ref>Diamond, Dan (1991). ''The Official National Hockey League 75th anniversary commemorative book''. Toronto: McClelland & Stewart. pp. 291. ISBN 0771067275</ref>''

Conn Smythe v Winning Goal

I think that a column of Conn Smythe winners would be a lot more helpful than the current column of who scored the winning goal. I know there is already another page with the list of Conn Smythe winners, but when hockey fans discuss past Cup finals, "Who won the Conn Smythe that year?" is a much more relevant question than "Who scored the Cup winning goal?" It would be very nice to have that information (the conn smythe) alongside the Cup Winning Team information.

12.31.164.29 (talk) 18:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

But the Cup winning goal is still of interest to many; most of the sources we used included that info. Since there is already a page for the Conn Smythe, but not for cup winning goals, it makes more sense to include the latter here. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 19:20, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

The topic of this page is the Stanley Cup, so it is appropriate to list the cup-winning goal here. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 19:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Both the Conn Smythe trophy and the winning goal are important stats. When speaking about the history of the game and a particular Stanley Cup year, it is more common and meaningful that people discuss who the MVP of the Stanley Cup playoffs was in a given year as opposed to the person who scored the game winning goal. To do so would diminish the value a player brought to their team during a playoff year given that, as an example, in 2013 very unknown player named Dave Boland scored the game winning goal and has his name in this list, whereas Patrick Kane had a spectacular playoff run and won the Conn Smythe trophy and is excluded. There are other examples of this. The Conn Smythe trophy is a specific trophy awarded to the player who is deemed most valuable to their team during the Stanley Cup year and the MVP should be included in the list as a quick reference the cup season with the most valuable player for that cup season. ʘ brokenlegmike ʘ (talk) 13:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

@Brokenlegmike: Your additions have again been reverted and cannot be reinstated until this has been discussed here per WP:BRD. Adding a nameless column to the table does not help it. How are people supposed to know why those players are there? The column was originally inserted in October 2016 by an IP editor and was then removed in May 2018 when the table was reworked. The tables in this page are already huge and that is why we have the Conn Smythe Trophy page (or any other trophy for that matter). – Sabbatino (talk) 05:56, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

"The Toronto Maple Leafs won the Cup in 1918 as the Toronto Blueshirts"

The team that played in Toronto in 1918 was not called the Blueshirts, they were called the Arenas. Can someone who knows how please fix this, 70.28.250.106 (talk) 01:14, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Technically, they weren't the "Arenas" either. They had no name, and were simply the "Torontos". At any rate, I've corrected the statement to be a bit more accurate. Cheers! Resolute 02:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but please explain "technically." If wikipedia is to disagree with all official sources (Official Guide and Record Book, The Official Encyclopedia of the NHL, NHL.com, Hockey Hall Of Fame), than there really needs to be a very well sourced explanation.174.90.254.168 (talk) 17:06, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Indeed there is: "Toronto Arenas" was a name created for the 1918-19 season as the team had no official name in 1917-18. The NHL uses Arenas for 1917-18, but that is an anachronism. Resolute 17:14, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry if this is discussed elsewhere, but what is the source? If you disagree with the official source and don't footnote it, that appears to be poor authorship. "Technically" the team was called the "Blue Shirts" in some newspaper articles, but was very clearly not the same team that were known historically as the Blueshirts. "Technically" the Toronto team in the NHA were incorporated as the "Toronto Hockey Club" but called the "Blue Shirts" in the media. "Technically" the Ottawa team that were champions in 1903-06 were well known as the "Silver Seven" but the hall of fame (and others) calls them the "Senators". This is a list of Stanley Cup champions that (unfootnoted) disagrees with the cup itself. I am not challenging your (or anybodies) knowledge, but I am challenging the presentation, and point, of some of the material.174.90.250.41 (talk) 16:51, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

See the book "Holzman, Morey (2002). Deceptions and Doublecross. Dundurn Press." Toronto was not inscribed onto the Cup in 1918. It was inscribed as Toronto Arenas in the year 1948. The club was not incorporated until 1918 when it was incorporated as the "Toronto Arenas Hockey Club". Prior to this, the franchise was operated by the Toronto Arena Company. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 17:17, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The Blueshirts won the 1914 Stanley Cup & the Arenas won the 1918 Stanley Cup. GoodDay (talk) 19:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you alaney2k for adding the necessary references, and footnotes. Any other objections I have I will keep to myself until after I have read the source material.174.90.250.41 (talk) 20:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome. It was a bizarre set of sequences. A league folding to keep an owner out. The Toronto players were taken, although 'leased', to the temporary franchise, although the owner of the contracts wasn't paid. I think it's simpler to list Toronto Arenas, and that's why you see it listed in so many places like that. But it would be non-encyclopedic to list it like that. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 14:06, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe this is covered in the Toronto Arenas article, no? As well as History of the Toronto Maple Leafs and 1917–18 Toronto Hockey Club season. Jmj713 (talk) 14:53, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 19:10, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Holzman believes they were called the Blueshirts. Pg. 17 attributes Stu McMurray as having the right answer--he believes it is blueshirts. Pg. 165 calls them the blueshirts. Appendix D identifies the 1917-18 team as the blueshirts. However I don't believe that complicating it further would be of any benefit. Perhaps a more suitable discussion on SIHR?174.90.231.168 (talk) 13:20, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

While I respect Holzman's research, I think we need a citation from the newspapers during that season, calling them the Blueshirts before we change the season name and the note in the article here. You could argue that the Blueshirts was only a nickname and the real name until 1920 was Toronto Hockey Club anyway. But nowadays the most common usage is Blueshirts for the NHA era, not for the NHL era. And if the Maple Leafs and the NHL do not want to credit the current franchise with the 1914 Stanley Cup, then linking is wrong. I already have a series for "Emergence of the Maple Leafs" set up. As for SIHR, we can bring it up on the message board, no problem. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 14:08, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Newspapers aren't a big help, unfortunately. The Toronto Globe called them the "Blue Shirts", the Quebec Telegraph simply the "Torontos". The Toronto World used all of "Torontos, Blue Shirts, Blues or Toronto". The Ottawa Citizen calls them the "Toronto Hockey Club", but also describes them as the "Blue Shirted club". The Montreal Gazette also uses "Toronto Hockey Club". And, of course, by October 1918, they were the "Toronto Arena Hockey Club". Personally, I would rather the note retains the club's formal name at that time because "Blue Shirts" is both ambiguous given the predecessor team's formal name and evidently used as an unofficial nickname, much like the Calgary Tigers were often referred to as the Bengals in the Calgary Herald at that time. Resolute 14:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps what's needed is a good and concise section on the team's history and evolution of the name to elaborate on all this so that the issue may be settled. Jmj713 (talk) 15:47, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe this is covered in the Toronto Arenas article. If it is not complete, then that would still be the place anyway. I don't think we need to do anything further on this article. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 18:17, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Change 'Season' column to 'Year' ?

I think we should change the left-hand link in the tables from 1915 on to just state the year of the Final, not the hockey season. E.g. 1920. For example, the Chicago Blackhawks are considered the 2010 Stanley cup champions, not the 2009-10 Stanley Cup champions. It's the way encyclopedias like 'Total Hockey' list it. Any objections?? ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 16:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Good idea. Jmj713 (talk) 16:25, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Ottawa Senators

There is an inconsistency with the list of Appearances/Wins/Losses etc. in the NHL Era (post 1915) with regards to the Ottawa Senators. As indicated earlier in the article, the Ottawa Senators lost in 1915, but won in 1920, 1921, 1923 and 1927. Therefore their record should be 4-2 with a win pct. of .667. ʘ Maestro and the Muse ʘ (talk) 13:19, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Huh? How are you computing a record of 4 wins and 2 losses when they only lost once in 1915? As indicated in several areas of the page in footnotes, there are two "Ottawa Senators" teams. The first one, Ottawa Senators (original), played from 1883 to 1954, and that is the one listed on the "Defunct teams" table. The current Ottawa Senators, which began play in 1992, has made only one appearance in 2007; this club is the one listed on the "Active teams" table. Zzyzx11 (talk) 02:45, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Noted. I just saw the "Defunct Teams" Section now. I don't know how I missed that the first time. Comment withdrawn. Maestro and the Muse (talk) 13:45, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

There's no list of Stanley Cup champions in this article

There doesn't appear to be a list in this article as suggested by the title. The "main" table is ordered by Stanley Cup appearances.. why? Why isn't it ordered by the number of "champions", as suggested by the title? Just a thought. 24.84.9.97 (talk) 06:35, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I had changed the "Wins" column to use bold numbers, so that it was more clear; but it was reverted without explaination here. Can someone explain this? I was attempting to address the fact that there should be a table ordered by number of Stanley Cup wins, as the title of this article suggests. At the moment, there is no such table; the reader who comes to this article expects a table ordered by number of Wins, but is faced with a table ordered by number of Appearances.. shouldn't we be applying the principle of least astonishment? Why can't we order that table by number of Wins? 24.84.9.97 (talk) 20:36, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

It is a sortable table. You can easily resort it by wins. Resolute 20:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

A list of champions is included from the first to the last. You're talking about a separate aggregate table which is ordered by number of appearances and then by wins. Jmj713 (talk) 20:49, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Isn't this[1] the list in question? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. I see your point; I had read the title as "List of teams who have won the Stanley cup", and expected a list of teams (not a list of seasons). Nevertheless, a common question readers coming to this page probably have is: How many times has team X won the Stanley Cup? Considering the title of the article, I would have expected this to be pretty obvious from one of the tables. A considerably less common question is: How many times has team X played in the Stanley Cup final? And my point is that this article emphasizes the second question, and not the first.

The reason I brought this up, is because I was at a pub quiz which asked "Which team has won the second most Stanley Cups"? I answered Toronto, but the quiz answer was Detroit. When I got home and checked Wikipedia, I saw that table and thought to myself "huh.. I guess it is Detroit". Only upon closer inspection does one realize the table isn't ordered by number of wins.. indeed the quiz-maker had come to this article, and incorrectly read the table, since it is ordered in an unintuitive way. Hence my complaint. 24.84.9.97 (talk) 20:45, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Please help a newbie (me)

I tried following the specific reference # 18 & the page would not load - the link (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SilverwareTrophyWinner.jsp?tro=STC&year=1924-25) is broken.

I found the correct link & cannot figure out how to fix the wiki page (I mean the link or ref#18 at the bottom of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stanley_Cup_champions).

For those of greater skill the working link is http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SilverwareTrophyWinner.jsp?tro=STC&year=1924-25

Can someone fix this? Thank you.66.37.177.130 (talk) 02:01, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Done, and I fixed three other references from the same site. Thank you for pointing this out! Resolute 02:10, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

inappropriate citation

I see this was discussed thoroughly two years ago, but never adequately fixed. Can someone add a citation, that makes sense, to the 1918 cup winners. I think how it is presented is sensible, however Holzman is cited as the source, but he does not agree, he believes they were called the Blueshirts.18abruce (talk) 15:43, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll try to remember to find a new source for this when I have time to look into some of my books. FWIW, if you go back into newspaper archives of the time, "Blueshirts" was often used as an informal nickname, which is likely where Holzman got it from. Resolute 01:41, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

It's entirely possible that they had no "real" nickname. Was the team really also called the "Arenas", or was that just because someone had to come up with a name? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:48, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

To clarify, I think it is appropriate to list the team name how the article does because of the ambiguity involved. The problem I have is with the citation explaining our choice since Holzman takes the time to make a case for the use of "Blueshirts". The way the article reads (to me) is that Holzman is backing up the notion that the team shold be called the Toronto Hockey Club, but I could be wrong. If I have misunderstood, and it is implying that Holtzman is the source for explaining why it is difficult to be certain what the name is, then that is probably okay.18abruce (talk) 02:06, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to split the "NHL Champions (Since 1927)" table into smaller tables

I propose to split this long table. Not only is it becoming long, approaching 90 rows, but it is difficult to differentiate the varied Stanley Cup Finals formats throughout the years. The article currently does not adequately mention the Original Six era when there were not any divisions or conferences, nor the late 1970s system where all the playoff teams were seeded 1 to 16 regardless of conference. Zzyzx11 (talk) 12:36, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Possible breakdown:

• 1927-28: American Division vs. Canadian Division
• 1929-38: [Not sure what to subtitle this section yet]
• 1938-42: Seven-team league
• 1943-67: Original Six era
• 1968-74: East Division vs. West Division
• 1975-81: [Also not sure what to subtitle this section yet]
• 1982-93: Wales Conf. vs. Campbell Conf.
• 1994-present: East Conf. vs. West Conf.

Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I really feel no split is necessary. I like the flow to the table as it is right now. I'd even wouldn't mind joining the prior years, basically including all annual Finals. Because to me this shows continuity. With several smaller sections you don't get that sense of continuous history. Jmj713 (talk) 05:23, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I would oppose merging The Challenge Cup era table. That era was totally different. There was no "annual" Cup Finals. Challenges could take place at any time, and thus it was common for teams to defend the Cup numerous times during the year. Furthermore, there were various formats ranging from a single-elimination game, to a total points series, to a best-of series, hus that table has an additional "playoff format" column. Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:36, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, this is a Wikipedia featured list. As I mentioned above, this page "currently does not adequately mention the Original Six era when there were not any divisions or conferences, nor the late 1970s system where all the playoff teams were seeded 1 to 16 regardless of conference". So on the one hand, it may not be, under Wikipedia:Featured list criteria, adequately "comprehensive". On the other hand, as you mentioned, it may affect the "style" and "structure" components. Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:42, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I did not mean merging the challenge games, I meant all annual Finals, starting 1915. But I'm also okay with how it currently is. I'm sure if really necessary more prose could be added to discuss various playoff formats in all the intervening years but it shouldn't be necessary to split the table. Jmj713 (talk) 06:14, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Astricks next to Dallas Stars 1999 "Championship"

Considering the final "goal" was never really scored, then there should be an astericks next to the name, as well as the winning goal.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.170.252.1 (talk • contribs) 22:58, 9 April 2014‎ (UTC)

No. Reliable sources don't put an asterisk on the Dallas Star's cup win.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 00:59, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Why has the trophy been "won 101 times" according to the first paragraph?

The sum of the wins of all teams is 103, not 101 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8388:28C7:6100:A883:3850:B39:EA6 (talk) 19:12, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

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Cup records by team

Most sports statistics contain a column amounting to "games played" or "innings pitched". I would personally welcome a "seasons played" / "years eligible" column, because statistics with veiled denominators (in any context) set a bad precedent.

The proper treatment of the denominator is to add a second additional column: expected Stanley cup wins, which is:

sum y in { season played } 1/Ny

where N_y is the number of teams in the league in the given year.

This could be additionally refined relative to the playoff structure (in some seasons, different numbers of teams were eligible as the western or eastern finalist), but this is kind of meaningless because slicing the league into divisions has sometimes taken into account the weak sisters. I think it's easier to assume that every legitimately contending team has a roughly equal shot each season modulo league politics (see whipping boy expansion era).

Without adding this second additional column, comparing a six-team league to a thirty-team league is like stating the price of a car in 1974, neglecting 400% inflation.

But I also admit that I'm personally more of a stickler for statistical honesty than your median bear. — MaxEnt 22:19, 23 February 2020 (UTC)