Talk:R. L. Burnside

Untitled

I feel the sentence about the reduced murder sentence needs verification and citation. I found a quotation in Pitchforkmedia.com vaguely similar to the one I just removed about the murder; the quotation in Pitchfork was that the man's death was "between him and God," but I found online no quote the same as the one I removed; I also feel it's not pertinent. If the sentence discussing the reduction of his murder sentence can be verified, it probably belongs there. I found and corrected a lot of spelling errors just now that almost seemed deliberately done, but hopefully were not. User:Bebop 22:39, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Also, shouldn't this page be set so that people looking him up the normal way, which is "R.L. Burnside," not "RL Burnside," will be able to find him easily that way? I do not know how to accomplish this. User:Bebop 22:45, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm now moving this page from RL Burnside to R. L. Burnside per the Naming Conventions faq. The man's name has periods in it anyway as he is best known. I do think the extra space between the initials is incorrect style, but I'll take that up elsewhere. Bebop 15:03, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

While I'm passing through, thought I would note there are a few things I don't have time to work on now but would like to change when time allows: There are still some links that say "RL Burnside". The quote about "I shot the m.f. three times.. but him dying was between him and the Lord" is something he paraphrases at every interview so it's kind of important. Still not exactly sure if Burnside is really Delta blues. I'm not a geography major but it looks like Marshall county is not technically in the Delta and I think Matthew Johnson doesn't consider it Delta at all. Possibly Piedmont or just "hill country blues" like the album name. Also, did we mention he knew Junior? --144.92.234.138 5 July 2005 01:35 (UTC)

There are reports that Burnside was killed in the floods after Hurricane Katrina.--Jimray 20:28, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Fat Possum's site confirms this, though the hurricane isn't mentioned. He was in Memphis. We've lost one of the greats. Hope his descendents will keep the music alive. Badagnani 21:06, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Redlinks

To the person removing redlinks: please do not remove every redlink you see. They are, to some extent, desirable on Wikipedia in that they alert editors of articles that need to be created. Thanks. Badagnani 17:41, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Blanking

This edit was not helpful to the article. As noted by Kenny Brown himself, as well as Burnside and writers on music, it is significant that Brown is the first notable white musician to master Burnside's North Mississippi Hill Country blues style. Mentioning "white" does not demean him in any way, it simply points out a notable aspect of Brown's heritage, in a genre dominated by individuals of African American ancestry. It is POV to edit from a perspective that "everyone should be an American" and that "ethnic groups in the United States should be ignored." This is why we have articles such as Italian American, African American, or Hmong American in the first place. Badagnani (talk) 21:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

That's a gross assumption of my motives, and an offensive one at that. Please refrain from personal attacks. His place in the Hill Country blues as a white man may be notable, but only until you provide a source for your claims. Otherwise, it is strictly your point-of-view. . --buck (talk) 22:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

As you know quite well from the Kenny Brown article where you have also insisted against logic on similar deletions, there are numerous sources documenting this. Kindly restore the text, with sources, as you are the editor who has (mistakently) insisted on the blanking. The fact that you knew there are multiple reliable sources, yet chose to blank nonetheless, is perplexing. Badagnani (talk) 22:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not perplexing in the least, as such information should be in the Kenny Brown article (and it is, at least at the current edit). This is an article on Burnside, with only a passing mention of Brown. This is not an issue of whether Brown's race is relevant to his music; it is an issue of whether or not we should include excess info on something that is not the subject of this article. I stand by my edit, but I will not become involved in an edit war. Hopefully others will offer assistance. --buck (talk) 22:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Chronology

There seem to be some issues with chronology here. The article states that Burnside picked up the guitar after hearing a 1948 release by John Lee Hooker, and says that he learned music from Fred McDowell, who lived nearby in Mississippi. However, the article later says that Burnside moved to Chicago in 1944 and lived there until around 1959, which would seem to make the earlier part of the chronology impossible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.90.243.130 (talk) 20:08, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Well Fred McDowell was living in Como, Mississippi from 1940 or 1941? That John Lee Hooker record was issued when Burnside was 22. So maybe we just need to swap those two? But the AllMusic biog does not mention Boogie Chillen'. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:46, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Before freshening up my memory of the source, may I have a guess? 1948 - first try out a guitar. 1959 - goes back to MS and start learning from McDowell. trespassers william (talk) 22:33, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Ok, here is what the sources have:

DELTA FORCE [1]

Burnside went north to Chicago. Muddy Waters had married his first cousin and he would go over to their house two or three times a week and play the blues with Muddy.

Gale Contemporary Black Biography [2]

did not begin playing the guitar until the age of 16. He came under the influence of a neighbor, "Mississippi Fred" McDowell, who was one of the pioneers of the blues genre. .... headed north to Chicago, where his father had settled. He found a thriving black musical subculture there, and often hung out with Muddy Waters, ... Burnside dabbled in music when he lived in Chicago, but most of his time was devoted to a job in a foundry. .... headed back to Mississippi, where he drove a farm tractor by day and at night traveled around to play guitar in the juke joints near his home in Holly Springs,

Gale Musician Profiles [3]

He attempted to play the harmonica but never quite mastered it. At the age of 16 he began playing guitar, and by 21, he began performing in public. Burnside’s father played guitar, but his biggest influences came from local players like Rainie Burnette and Jesse Vortis. His principal influence, however, was Fred McDowell. "He [McDowell] was a big influence on me," Burnside told Ed Mabe of Perfect Sound Forever online. "He started me. I watched him and he was the first guy I saw play the blues." .... Burnside moved to Chicago in the mid 1940s. There he lived with his father who had also moved to the city. Though he had put his guitar aside at the time, Burnside nonetheless absorbed the intoxicating sounds of his new environment. He also met Muddy Waters, who had married his first cousin. "I was working during the day at the foundry," he recalled to Kenny Brown of Blues on Stage online, "and every night I’d go over to Muddy’s. .... After returning to Mississippi in 1959, Burnside began performing at house parties and juke joints, building a local reputation.

Summary: ~1942 first guitar. shortly thereafter McDowell influence. ~1947 in Chicago, first play in public, but mostly in private and generally not a lot. [1948 Boogie Chillen single] 1959 goes south and start a more steady music career.

Conclusion: ditch Hooker legend, which I'll do. trespassers william (talk) 15:38, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Cf. other dates: [4]. trespassers william (talk) 17:54, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Seems fair. But I wonder where, "John Cofield ... one of Oxford’s leading folk historians", got this:

"Burnside was first inspired to pick up a guitar in his early twenties, after hearing the 1948 John Lee Hooker single, “Boogie Chillen.”": [5], haha Martinevans123 (talk) 17:59, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh well.. To be honest it's possible Hooker gave him a push, just not documented around here. We should check if there are other mines here. trespassers william (talk) 18:56, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Here's something from Encyclopedia of Jazz & Blues by Keith Shadwick: "In his teens [before 1947] Burnside began playing the local juke joints and getting a reputation for himself... Hearing on the radio R&B and the new blues music being made by younger players living up North in the immediate postwar years, Burnside moved to Chicago for a time... He returned to the South at the start of the following decade, keeping to the same pattern he'd employed as a youth, singing and playing at parties and jukes." (p. 255) —Ojorojo (talk) 19:20, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

I think that's quite enlightening and perhaps could be worked in. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:24, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

On the other hand, Gerard Herzhaft includes in his Encyclopedia of the Blues (in which I've found several errors): "he was very early on immersed in music. He sang in several bands but learned the guitar in 1953 with his neighbors Ranie Burnette and Fred McDowell as teachers." (p. 47) It's probably a case where alternative histories should be mentioned. —Ojorojo (talk) 19:42, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Only regarding the year. The possible 1953 can be added now; it's also on the liner notes linked above. But "Several bands" is too vague to use as is. And, if we gather he had some interest in music pre-chicago (seem like the overwhelming opinion), McDowell must be placed at that stage, since Chicago had Muddy, and McDowell " ...started me. I watched him and he was the first guy I saw play the blues." trespassers william (talk) 21:02, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

The Mabe intrview make it clear he ddn't go to Chicago for the music:

PSF: I read that you were also related to Muddy Waters?

RL: Yeah. Well, I went up into Chicago in the '40's. My father and mother separated when I was real young and he married again and he went up to Chicago. He'd been up there about 10 or 15 years. And I went up there just to stay with him awhile just to try and make some more money, ya know. Got up there and I'd heard Muddy Waters music and I liked it. I got up there and he was married to a first cousin of mine, Anna Mae.

PSF: Did you guys play together?

RL: No, I wasn't playing then. I just lived and listened to the music. I'd go over to his house about every other night. We worked at the same place, over at the Howard's Foundry and I'd go over at his house about every other night and listen to him play. There was a place there in Chicago where they called the Zanzibar he played on Friday nights, ya know. And I go up there with him to play every Friday night. Sunday we'd go down on Mackerel Street, you know, where a lot of blues players was at. I'd get to listen to them.

trespassers william (talk) 21:40, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

What does Robert Palmer have to say? He spent a lot of time with him, produced Too Bad Jim (the liner notes only mention McDowell, no date), and a film Deep Blues: A Musical Pilgrimage to the Crossroads that features RL. —Ojorojo (talk) 22:13, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Palmer doesn't mention him in his 1981 book Deep Blues. —Ojorojo (talk) 22:17, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

In You See Me Laughin (beautiful film), minutes 25-30, Burnside tells the sequence: "we used to sing in the church, me and my sister, when we were little --?" - growing up near McDowell - age 16-17, playing badly - Chicago, not playing, watching Muddy - MS, joining McDowell gigs, playing after him. Matt Johnson adds the words , "most of these guys, learned own their own. RL Burnside, it was boogie chillen...John lee Hooker's big song. From there he learned from McDowell, and couple others legendary masters". trespassers william (talk) 03:42, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I think that rules out any serious playing before going to Chicago or learning from McDowell (apparently after he returned from Chicago). There must of been a lag between hearing Waters and "Boogie Chillen'" and later being inspired to take up guitar with McDowell (although he might have seen him before he went to Chicago). Although 1953 is mentioned, other sources put his return to the South in 1959–1960. Maybe that's how it should be presented. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:34, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Another thing: in YSML he tells (min 35+) he got five years for the murder, then was released after six months. I tryed to verify that verdict, searching court records from here, but the results only appear for American IPs. Can some somebody trace it, maybe even get the state's version of this myth? trespassers william (talk) 20:31, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't find any info (many of these "public records" websites are privately run for-a-fee services of little value). The Mississippi Department of Corrections has newer records online. They note: "For all others contact the MDOC Records Department at 601-933-2889." —Ojorojo (talk) 14:16, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Slash and drone

Robert Palmer and everyone after him described the elements of Burnside's music as "Droning and Slashing". I get the Drone (music), it's a simple concept and easily heard. Now about slash, do you believe what is meant is Slash chord? Can someone with musical education testify if that's important here? Or is it just pictorial description of the music, maybe derived from the way Burnside acts around a guitar.

More generally, which of this two elements should be connected with hill country blues as a style? I think drone is common elsewhere too, although maybe not as prominent, but again don't know about slash. trespassers william (talk) 18:29, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

PS Mitchell writes on drone already in 1969. trespassers william (talk) 18:49, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Ref help

Why the ref error. All I changed is

<ref>...</ref>

to

{{refn|group=n|...}}

which worked well on the rest of the page. trespassers william (talk) 13:09, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Because of the "=" within the URL. An equality sign is interpreter by templates as part of the template code, separating the name of a parameter from the content of the parameter. Thus within {{refn}}, that footnote text became interpreted as a parameter named "Later released on a 2010 DVD, and the [[Alan Lomax Archive]]'s Youtube channel: [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list" with a content of "PL7E44622E11A03C54 playlist]" - and no actual text for the reference was found. That can be solved by explicitly adding a "1=" at the beginning to tell the template that everything that follows, including any further equality signs, should be interpreted as the first unnamed parameter. Huon (talk) 13:35, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Murder conviction

Why is there no mention of his murder conviction and very short prison stay? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sabatino1977 (talk • contribs) 14:14, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

It's not mentioned in his bios in All Music Guide to the Blues (1996, Skelly), The Encyclopedia of Jazz & Blues (2007, Shadwick), or Encyclopedia of the Blues (1992, Herzhaft). Do you have a reliable source? —Ojorojo (talk) 14:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Second marriage

I don't think there's enough evidence to claim that he had two marriages. So, I think that part should be removed or atleast change to say it might not be true. Bozoguy (talk) 17:16, 13 February 2024 (UTC)