Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brentwood School (Los Angeles)

Brentwood School (Los Angeles) was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was to keep.

Non-notable school. RickK 00:34, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

• Keep. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:46, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Keep, given it's location in West LA I would be less then surprised to find some rather famous people who graduated from it, or who's children attend it. While the art of star tracking is not something I'm remotely interested in given how well the tabloids sell I think a large number of people are. —Florescentbulb 01:41, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Delete unless further information is added to establish notability. (The current article provides lots of information that could describe one of hundreds of schools.) "There might hypothetically be famous alumni" is not enough. -[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 02:27, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Concur -- Jmabel | Talk 03:02, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep, its a resonably good article about a school, perhaps merge into West Los Angeles in a education section? —siroχo 04:22, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep older≠wiser 04:28, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • Why?
    • Because I think it is worth keeping. older≠wiser 15:49, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
      • Let me expand on that a bit--I think the default for VfD should be to keep articles and that it is up to those who want to delete an article to demonstrate why an article is not worth keeping. I don't vote on most articles listed on VfD because the deletionists are generally fairly efficient at weeding out the chaff that really doesn't belong in WP. For the most part I agree that most of the stuff that passes VfD should be deleted and there are usually more than enough deletionists voting that I don't bother investigating, mostly because I don't particularly take much pleasure in sifting through drek. Occasionally I see something listed that I think is worth keeping and I vote to keep. I think the burden of persuasion is on those who want to delete rather than those who want to keep. older≠wiser 15:58, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
  • Fairly stated. I disagree entirely, of course, as I believe it is the burden of any submission to show that it is true, notable, and not designed for advertising or insult. I also think of the reader, rather than the joyless contributor: does the reader learn anything? If not, delete it. In cases like this, what the reader learns is that X School is a School. P=P is not enough for me. Geogre 19:09, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Delete: It needs to provide notability in the article, not in our imaginations. It's possibly important, possibly not. We don't know. Geogre 05:20, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Why do you think it hasn't provided notability? Isn't this just begging the question? anthony 警告 16:22, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • It hasn't because notability is not "is a school." Nor is it notable to be located where rich folks are. It is notable if it does something as a member of its type that is of note. Does it have a radical new curriculum? Does it lead the world in school plays? Does it do something that every other stinking school in the entire world does? Show me where this article distinguishes the school from every other school. Being a school is no more notable than being a Denny's. Geogre 19:09, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • I think the article clearly distinguishes itself from other schools. Take out the name of the school, and you've still got an article which is different from any other school. I'm not sure why you think something needs to be special within its type. We don't keep only some cities, or some US Presidents, or some species. This seems like an arbitrary rule you've invented for schools, and you haven't explained why we should adopt such a rule. Just saying "we shouldn't have an article on all schools" is not enough. You need to explain why we shouldn't have an article on all schoools. anthony 警告 19:25, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • That analogy is false. Is a President a school? No. A president, regardless of anything else, is a person who has achieved a truly amazing thing: he has gotten into that office. On the other hand, it takes literally nothing to make a "school." An accredited school is harder. Places, also, are not notable, but they are historically significant. While Sharpsburg, VA may not mean much now and may not have much of a population, it was very important in the Civil War. That place will be referred to by many articles, and that's why Rambot's work has inherent usefulness. On the other hand, a school is just a school. If it has a character to it that means that it has contributed to history in an identifiable way or if it shapes its students lives in a way that is characteristic of that school and not just school in general, then it has an identity that can be discussed. In the case of public schools, one is so much like another that there is no quality or attribute of the thing that can be identified, much less achieve notability. Further, were all schools inherently notable because ... of something like they occupy space... then these articles you folks are voting "keep" on are laughingstocks. If you were to expand and fix them and then vote keep, that would be one thing, but your votes appear to be designed not to create anything, much less an encyclopedia, as much as to try to wage war against a group of people you have identified as enemies. Keep the project in mind, not the people. Finally, I have never said "no schools." In fact, most of the people that are now targets of the vitriol of the meta inclusionists have never said that. You may convince yourselves that all of us have, but, in fact, I can think of one or two people only. Most of us have said "Significant schools should be kept." Thus, none of us will vote delete on Andover or Chote or Baltimore City College (a public high school) or Boston Latin or any school that is notable. Instead of working with us, though, you seek to disrupt the pages. That's why I, for one, am no longer convinced that your motives are good. Geogre 03:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • It's not an analogy, it's an example. Something doesn't have to be "special within its type" in order to be an encyclopedia entry. Populated places are no more historically significant than any school. In fact, many schools are populated places. Rambot is particularly useless, because it gives us only statistical data that is better suited for wikisource. But that's a completely different argument. All schools should be kept. This isn't an argument about people, this is an argument about making the most comprehensive encyclopedia in the world. If you think these articles are laughingstocks, I suggest you fix them rather than delete them. Try to focus on creation, not destruction. Don't accuse me of disrupting pages. You are the one who is trying to get pages removed. anthony 警告 03:23, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Keep it. [[User:Radman1|RaD Man (talk)]] 08:17, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Why?
    • Why not?
      • The deletion guidelines.
        • The deletion guidelines require consensus for deletion.
• Merge with West Los Angeles - Skysmith 08:54, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to West Los Angeles or Keep The Steve 09:14, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
• Since this school likely only serves it's local area, Merge with Brentwood, Los Angeles, California rather than West Los Angeles. Average Earthman 11:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Keep - SimonP 15:26, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • Why?
    • Why not?
      • Not notable. See the deletion guidelines. If you disagree with them, try to change them.
        • That something not notable should be deleted is true by definition. No one disagrees with that. The question is why is it not notable.
          • You mean that everyone must prove a negative in order to allow for their votes to count, and otherwise they are "deletionists" who must be stopped? "Prove that there are no WMD there, or we will invade!"
            • You don't have to prove anything. Whether or not something is notable is an opinion, not a fact. You can't prove it. But just stating something is not notable without any reasoning is unacceptable.
• Keep - GRider 17:37, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Why?
    • Why not?
      • Because mass produced votes from a page are worth every bit as much as mass produced articles on "dah school what I goes to."
        • I fail to see how that has any bearing on this article.
        • It has a hell of a lot to do with "consensus."
        • Perhaps you should try to explain this better, because I don't get it.
• Delete. Not notable. --Improv 18:08, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Why?
• Keep. Rick, please stop listing these obviously notable schools. If you continue I will list you on RFC. anthony 警告 21:45, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • • Do it. I dare you. RickK 00:15, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
      • Keep trolling VfD like this and I will. anthony 警告 00:32, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Your idea of notability, as shown further up in VfD, indicates that you think anyone who died in a war is notable, as well as all schools. That seems, to me, like you're not using the word notable the same way anyone else here is. Surely there's a less combative way for you to vote on VfD? --Improv 01:36, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • I'm using notable the same way as most other people, I just have a broader view of what is notable. However, this article is obviously notable, and RickK seems to be listing it for no other reason than to be provacative. anthony 警告 16:24, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I have not seen any evidence that this school is "notable". Every high school in America has famous alumni. Please explain why this school is so "obviously notable." Kaldari 18:28, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• (no vote) Actor brothers Fred and Ben Savage attended this school according to [1] --rbrwr^± 22:08, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. The 'famous students' claim is not hypothetical. Various children of famous politicians and artists attend, although for privacy's sake, their names will not be mentioned. It is a notable school and carries a lot of clout, and you people are doing Wikipedia a disservice by placing these good articles up for deletion for whatever personal reasons. -CunningLinguist 23:46, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Since you seem to know something about it, would you be willing to add a reference to those actors who are mentioned on the site that Rbrwr linked? There doesn't seem to be a privacy concern there (since it's talking about people who have long since moved on). -[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 00:59, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Delete. Article does not establish notability. Gamaliel 01:43, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • In what way?
    • Change vote to keep based on improvements to the article. Though it's overly long, there is actual notable information in there now instead of something that read like the school's press release. This is the kind of thing that changes votes, not angry rhetoric calling your opponents trolls. Gamaliel 06:08, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Keep - stop deletion trolls. Intrigue 04:26, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Ah, a copy and pasted vote! Your rationale is to "stop deletionist trolls?" No reference to the article, but rather an expression of your party affiliation in an imaginary party system on Wikipedia? Why not just say, on every vote on every school, "I dislike the people I've decided are deletionists" and not do the "keep" vote? Unless, of course, you are going to explain why this article should be kept. Geogre 15:45, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • The nominator didn't explain why it should be deleted. I would think we would keep articles by default. Otherwise this page would be called "Votes for Keeping" and we'd require admin access to create an article rather than to delete one. anthony 警告 16:20, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • In other words, Anthony, you're on Everything2. Good! You might want to check the URL a bit, though. I think you've accidentally gotten to Wikipedia, which is a Wiki encyclopedia, and not "write whatever you want and it can stay unless someone can take :20 of their time to prove that it's false." Geogre 19:14, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • I don't see this comment as anything other than a personal attack. I never said people have to prove that it's false. In fact, this article is clearly not false. I said that in order to delete something (or use any other admin power), you need to at least provide a reason. anthony 警告 19:29, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • You said that people have to prove that it is not notable in this vote. Elsewhere, you have said, repeatedly, that Wikipedia should keep any article that is not false. Call that a personal attack, if you like, but they are your statements. I think in order to have your keep vote counted, you should have to provide a reason. How about that? Geogre 03:08, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • I never said anyone had to prove anything. Notability is an opinion. It can't be proven. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT WIKIPEDIA SHOULD KEEP ANY ARTICLE THAT IS NOT FALSE. Stop lying. I am willing to say that people voting keep must provide a reason, but only if the person nominating the article provides a reason. No reason has been provided other than the reflexive "not notable". anthony 警告 03:34, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Mark Richards 20:37, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Why?
    • Why not?
    • The deletion guidelines.
• Delete. This is basically an advertisement for a private school disguised as an encyclopedia article. Notice the references to their "experienced, caring faculty" and "vibrant and diverse community". If you actually read the article it's obvious this is not an objective article, but rather a slick bit of marketing. As such it is totally inappropriate for wikipedia.-Kaldari 16:54, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • If you have problems with the objectivity of the article, you are free to edit it. anthony 警告 17:41, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Honestly I don't see any point to this article rather than it's use as an advertisement. Every high school in America has famous alumni, that doesn't make the school any more important or historically relavent. Oprah Winfrey graduated from my high school. So what? That doesn't mean we should have an encyclopedia article about it. Show me another reason why this school merits an article besides the fact that some movie stars went there. I could not find any remarkable information about this school anywhere on the internet. If there's something special about it, speak up, otherwise I strongly favor deletion.Kaldari 17:59, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • Why does something have to be "special" to be in an encyclopedia? To me, an advertisement would have to be unfixable or contain no useful NPOV information to deserve deletion as such. Now I don't even see how this could be called an advertisement, but even if it were it seems better to fix the advertising aspect than to delete from scratch. But in my opinion this school merits and article simply because it's a school. As I argue, Wikipedia is not paper, so there is plenty of room to include an article on every school in the world. This is somewhat of a strawman, but I am forced to guess the reason for deletion because no one has really expressed it. The people voting to delete seem to go no further than to simply say that it doesn't deserve an article. There's no explanation as to why we are better off not granting it an article than we are in granting it an article. I see this as a somewhat unactionable complaint. In order to reach consensus, we need to know why each side feels the way it does. I'm sure we can come up with a solution which will address everyone's issues, but in order to do that we need to figure out what the issues of every side are. anthony 警告 19:57, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • At some point Wikipedia ceases to be an encyclopedia and becomes simply an endless directory of mostly-useless information. Where do you draw the line? If it's OK to post articles about every school on the planet, why not post an article about every restaurant on the planet, every coffeeshop on the planet, every person on the planet? Kaldari 23:09, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
          • If you mean useless to everyone, then I don't agree. Certainly an article on any school is useful to someone. If you mean that most of the encyclopedia will become mostly useless to most people, I think that's already true, and is true of any encyclopedia. I don't care about 95% of the information in Wikipedia. But that 95% doesn't harm me, and it is useful to others, so we should keep it. I wouldn't mind an article about every restaurant, or every coffeeshop, or every person. I draw the line at what is verifiable. If a respected source documents the information in the article, then why not keep it? I should note that not every restaurant, coffeeshop, or person in the world is verifiable. However, every school, at least every school in a first world country, is verifiable, as there are government documents easily available which can verify the information about them. anthony 警告 01:38, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
            • First off, I do not see how this can be an advertisement unless you also consider the wikipage of ANY OTHER school or college to also be an advertisement. Of course it will talk about its achievements, thats why it is notable. I have added more information on its various alumni, relation to the Olympic games, and famous speakers at the school in hopes of establishing its notoriety and notability among more people. I have already voted to Keep and I encourage all others to do the same. Some people go too far with deletion. I honestly beleive deletion should be reserved for articles that are advertisements, insults etc. Of which this is not. Is it important or notable to all? NO, but in that case you should delete 90% of every scientific article on Wikipedia since very few people are drawn or attracted to those. I beleive neither should be deleted as both are important to SOME people and keeping these articles will establish Wikipedia as a greater informational source and dare-I-say-it, a index of the worlds knowledge. I agree with the person who stated reasons for deletion should be shown, not reasons for keeping. Please vote to keep this article.-CunningLinguist 05:03, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
              • I have added the Guest lecture series at Brentwood school in hopes of greater establishing its notablity. please vote to keep as i have. -CunningLinguist 04:23, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I've removed the word "caring". I think "experienced" is objective enough to leave in, but if you object to it I won't mind if you rephrase it. As for "vibrant and diverse community", that was clearly marked as a quote from the school's mission statement. anthony 警告 17:57, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • BTW, the Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not page states the Wikipedia is NOT "a vehicle for advertising and self-promotion. We don't need articles on items just because a contributor is associated with them. Commercial links are certainly OK if they can serve to identify major corporations associated with a topic..." Kaldari 18:19, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • I fail to see how that is applicable. This article isn't an advertisement (it may have some minor POV problems, but worse can be said about the George W. Bush article), and we don't have it just because a contributor is associated with the school. I would guess that the majority of the people voting to keep this article are in fact not associated with the school. I can say for myself that I am not associated with the school. anthony 警告 19:32, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • It seems pretty obvious that whoever posted this article is associated with the school. But, of course, I could be wrong :)
        • Just because someone related to the school started the article doesn't mean that the article can never exist in any form. anthony 警告 01:32, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. DCEdwards1966 04:25, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Schools are inheritantly notable. --Andylkl 08:39, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. Not notable. -- WOT 16:42, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Notable school. One of the best known in Los Angeles. AfCg 05:28, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. - Ta bu shi da yu 00:59, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• I have already voted to Keep however, I would like to point something out. User RickK has placed other schools up for deletion. If we are to use historical precedence as a guide, please look at The Pembroke Hill School. User RickK put this article up for deletion and users voted to KEEP IT. Now look at that article and look at this Brentwood School (Los Angeles) article. If that article merited keeping in the eyes of wikipedians, then surely this one must also as it is A. far more notable B. far better written and C. more comprehensive. Thank you for your time of day and please vote to keep. -CunningLinguist 05:44, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Schools are notable. Academic Challenger 00:41, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• delete Every school is unique, every school is different, every school is noteable. That doeesnt mean theres a place for them here, My high school is noteable, my middle and elememntery are noteable too. But just because its a school does not make it inportan enough to list even if its known in LA, so what? Ill bet you can name the schools in your town. What makes the fact that its in LA matter at all? What makes it special? I could justify putting up a article a small midwestern highschool because it was 'noteable.' Why is it so- bacuse people go to school there and they graduate- in a certain town. If thats what someone calles noteable, though, i think you could justfy a list every school everywhere. I think we should narrow our criteria a bit to cut down on the number of schools listed by keeping those deemed 'particularly noteable'- If theres still a lot listed (in the thousands) up that to 'exeptionably noteable.' I ask you what would make this school 'particularly noteable'and 'exeptionably noteable', instead of just 'noteable'?

-fledgeling 01:19, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• • The Wikipedia criteria is notable only. If every school is notable(which it is not, but for the sake of your arguemnt we will assume this) then every school deserves to go on Wikipedia. If the schools you attended are notable, then be my guest and make entries for them. I would support such an endeavor. Secondly, did you actually read the article? Where exactly does anyone assert that it is notable simply because it is in Los Angeles?? If you had read the article you would notice it is considered notable for its notable alumni/students, exceptional educational qualities, famous speakers, Olympians, special events, etc. The location is barely even mentioned. It wouldn't be any different if it were in the middle of a rural locale, in fact to continue use of your argument, I too beleive a Midwestern High School deserves to have it's own article if it were notable! As far as 'exceptional notability', I disagree, the Wikipedia standard is Notability alone, if you wish to propose a complete change to Wikipedia policy there are venues for that on this site. However, to continue with your argument, I DO beleive it is exceptionally notable for A. Its students B. Its special events C. Its ties to the Olympics and D. for its Lecture Series which is on the same level as many University Lecture Series'.

-CunningLinguist 03:56, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• • • goodness calm down. I did not refer to the article i was in part refering to others comments (--Schools are inheritantly notable. --notable school--All schools should be kept-- One of the best known in Los Angeles). I have read the article. Your in the school, right? I know many students in many schools that are not notable (iv transfered many times) whom would classify their school as exceptionally notable-for its students and for its special events. I take your word that its a great school. i hear you. Buuuut at the same time, those famous people that graduated from the school, shouldnt it be noted in their pages (example: [unamed] graduated from [where], [when]), instead of adding a new article for that school, wich takes up bandwith. Every school does things diffrently (like special events), but we dont need to list every single one that does something different [as far as you know] from other ones in the reagon, or state even. And lastley, people seeking this knowlege would likely be in the area and go to the school to get the information directly.

Im all for decresing not notable or barely noteable pages, in part because of the fact that every page increses badwith. the more pages, the more badwith, and the more expensive it is to keep the site running for the owner. -fledgeling

• • • • I am calmed down, I was just making a rebuttle to your statement, since it seemed by your delete vote that you were referring to this article in particular. I am not in the school, although I do know of it from outside Wikipedia. As far as just mentioning the information in Famous Alumni's Biography pages: I beleive the fact that it would be included in so many pages of notable people and could inspire curiosity from readers is justification for this page in itself, and although a blurb is fine in a biography, people's pages are no place to put the entire info of a school on. I beleive if a school is unique enough and notable enough, then it does merit a page. And come on, people seeking knowledge would go to the school itself?? That combats the very beauty and purpose of tools such as the Internet and Wikipedia, and secondly not everyone has resources to go the school itself, and it is unpractical. When you want the news, do you go down to your local newspaper or TV station and ask the news editor to tell you personally, or do you use the tool of popular media to have it be delivered to you(and millions of others) in a far more practical way and one with more documentation for future people seeking that info? As far as the webpage-bandwith, i agree with you, unnecessay bandwidth should be removed, however I do not feel this is an unnecesserry use of bandwidth, again I refer to historical precedent, see: [Pembroke HIll School] which users beleived notable enough to survive a VfD, yet the article is not as comprehensive as this one and does not seem as notable In My Opinion. I beleive the Founders/Keepers of Wikipedia would rather incur a few more cents of cost in order to better serve the purpose of wikipedia than to save an insignificant amount of $$$ and diminish Wikipedia's greatness. -CunningLinguist 05:09, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. NeoJustin 17:50, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Keep (and whoever keeps asking people "Why", I don't need to answer why, I only need to vote) Chuck 23:37, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Keep. More notable than a species of magnolia. By the way Chuckstar, the guidelines do ask for reasoning for your vote. It's not obligatory but it is fair enough.Dr Zen 00:30, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

HEY! A species is more noteable than a school. There are millions of them[schools], the vast majority of these, including this one, arnt noteable. I am filling links, im not creating pages at random with no link to more noteable subjects. Yulan magnolia was of inportance as a symbol! It has been cultivated in Chinese Buddhist temple gardens since 600AD. Its flowers were regarded as a symbol of purity in the Tang Dynasty and it was planted in the grounds of the Emperor's palace, as well as the fact that these species are of more or less inmortance as ornamantals. This genus is of great interest to hotraculturalists as well, so every species is notable.

I apologize for my tart reply, i could have said it more civily

Please don't worry. I'm not upset by a frank and forthright statement of an honestly held opinion. I am not in any way attacking your work on magnolia species, which I believe also to be notable. The particular page you mention is an excellent piece of work. There are lots of schools, yes, but I have not found anything in the policy to suggest that there being a lot of something necessarily makes it unnotable. Indeed, coherent statements of notability are few and far between. So in each case it seems that we must make a value judgement of our own. You say that most schools are not notable. I say they all are. Without a shared definition of "notability", ne'er the twain shall meet.Dr Zen 03:02, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thank you, Dr Zen. We all do have different opinions on what is notable. So what I should probably have said from the start is that if the author can name who some of the important people are who have graduated from this school and what it had done to further their career, it would fit my definition of notability. Since I haven't been around that much to form any real idea of what is notable for this site, perhaps I shouldn't vote at all. What I would like even more, though, was if this site had a spell-check program on it... User: Fledgeling03:12, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• But Fledgeling, it does! The other editors are your spell-check programme. That's how it works!Dr Zen 03:30, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • i wanna be part of the solution, not the problem! was there a specific name listid, or did i miss that?User: Fledgeling03:36, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.